I understand the EU will impose restrictions and stringent regulations on the UK, but the EU is only a minority when we think on a global basis. We have a commonwealth which spans the globe and collectively, is a similar size if not bigger the the EU in terms of combined economies, We should be doing more to trade with India, Canada, Australia, South Africa etc. India is one of the fastest growing economies on the planet with a talent pool off highly educated doctors, engineers, teachers. Why not reignite the links we have with these countries and grow together, why be restricted to trading within the EU? if the EU doesnt want to trade with the UK, fine we will trade with somebody else, we can create a trade zone scheme like the EU with any country if we really wanted to.
Off Topic BREXIT
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I understand the EU will impose restrictions and stringent regulations on the UK, but the EU is only a minority when we think on a global basis. We have a commonwealth which spans the globe and collectively, is a similar size if not bigger the the EU in terms of combined economies, We should be doing more to trade with India, Canada, Australia, South Africa etc. India is one of the fastest growing economies on the planet with a talent pool off highly educated doctors, engineers, teachers. Why not reignite the links we have with these countries and grow together, why be restricted to trading within the EU? if the EU doesnt want to trade with the UK, fine we will trade with somebody else, we can create a trade zone scheme like the EU with any country if we really wanted to.
It isn't a debate (or it wasn't until you started debating it)
I think it is a possibility...a columnist for the Financial Times thinks it is a possibility...the referendum laws have been written in such as way to ensure it is a possibility ...you don't think it is a possibility
That's fine, I was only expressing a view, not trying to convince anyone to agree with me ...but it is at least possible
Yes there are more CAR factories producing cars but how many have their headquarters in the EU? Honda is Japanese as is Nissan. Land Rover and Jaguar are now owned by TATA Automation which is an Indian based company. BMW is German but what is its production output in comparison to the others?
This theory falls down, on the basis that the cheap imports we buy don't generally come from the EU.
The Far East, which is the largest manufacturer of cheap imports, is already subject to 15% import duty (though there are some places outside the EU where there is no duty, like Turkey and Tunisia). This applies to all EU countries, if you look at the electrical goods, clothing and other commodities in all EU countries it's exactly the same as it is here.
Cars is also a poor example, we're one of Europe's biggest car manufacturing nations, the reason the car brands themselves are no longer English, is because the British government privatised them and through complete incompetence started making utterly **** cars.
It isn't a debate (or it wasn't until you started debating it)
I think it is a possibility...a columnist for the Financial Times thinks it is a possibility...the referendum laws have been written in such as way to ensure it is a possibility ...you don't think it is a possibility
That's fine, I was only expressing a view, not trying to convince anyone to agree with me ...but it is at least possible
Unless it's an emphatic REMAIN vote then I can see a General Election later this year. Then it's all bets off.
What you're talking about is capitalism. Not culture issues and identity issues.
Most of the world imports things that are made cheaper elsewhere, that's no different for anyone. Leaving the EU is going to achieve what exactly? All brits will suddenly start buying Minis and Lotuses? Perhaps, but you'd have to be able to make them cheaper than elsewhere. Meaning you wouldn't be able to raise wages. And then you'd have to worry about British workers wanting to make cars for that low of a salary.
But in any case, I don't see how leaving will suddenly achieve all of this. I admire your reasoning to some extent but I think you've been deceived by the leave camp if you believe this may happen in the long run.
You've also been deceived if you believe the EU is to blame for all of this.
What is "loosing (sic) its culture" exactly? There's no such thing. Culture evolves, slavery was once part of our culture, so were hangings, overruling monarchy and so on...
if you look at Switzerland and Norway, have they got any power whatsoever or influence in the world? no. They literally opted to stay out of it all. That is totally acceptable but there's a real contradiction in hoping that somehow leaving the EU will make us a dominant power again. And actually from my point of view, I think the UK is HIGHLY influential in the world. The power the country has is not in the form of how many lands we own or how many people buy rover cars, it's in a different form now, we have a strong currency, London is THE financial hub of Europe if not the world, we get involved in most things these days. Leaving the EU may achieve some things internally but it certainly won't turn us into a USA or a China if that's what your hoping for.
I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.
I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.
Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:
It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...itain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsom
Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?
Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.
Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.
Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…
What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.
So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.
Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:
Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.
Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?
Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…
Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.
Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ****ers never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )
Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.
Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.
And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg
Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.
Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”
Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?
So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.
Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:
It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...itain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsom
Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?
Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.
Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.
Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…
What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.
So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.
Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:
Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.
Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?
Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…
Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.
Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ****ers never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )
Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.
Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.
And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg
Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.
Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”
Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?
So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
As i did state, i do not know everything and would be completely inept when it comes to making decisions on how to run a country, there will be many points i have missed and lots of information regarding trading agreements with other countries. My analogy of the cars was a not meant in a literal term about buying only UK cars but about a culture within the UK of not being bothered about where we buy our produce from. The french buy whats made in France as do the Germans. I work in the electronic component trade and i deal on a global basis, and when i speak to German companies, they only deal with other German companies.
The Out campaign talk of Red Tape.
Most of the red tape is workers rights, holiday pay maternity, paternity pay etc.
Im sure a right wing government would like to see these torn up.
I would trust Borus as much as D Trump
Most of the red tape is workers rights, holiday pay maternity, paternity pay etc.
Im sure a right wing government would like to see these torn up.
I would trust Borus as much as D Trump
I understand and I agree that's definitely better but what I'm saying is that it is not necessarily the EU's fault that we have lost all of this. And leaving it won't solve that specific aspect.
And if anything you are contradicting yourself. You've used two countries that are integral part of the EU. Their membership clearly has nothing to do with how much they manufacture and buy otherwise they'd want to leave also.
With regards the the example of using these countries is to make a point. They are two of the most important countries in the TRADE agreement. But they as i have experienced, prefer not to TRADE with us.
You wouldn't believe how many 'left-wing' people I know support the EU. Not just centre-left or Labour voters but full-on Marxists, anarchists and communists who like to think of themselves as revolutionaries. It's pathetic and contradictory to the extreme.
So, you see your options as a) a government accountable to the UK electorate that can be voted out every five years, or b) unelected, nameless bureaucrats that are in power until they find a better gravy train.
There is something you need to seriously consider here Sterling and it related directly to your point on nett contribution. As the economy of the EU shrinks and shows no real sign of improving A) the rebate will shrink due to their being less available in the pot or B) as an economic well to do our contributions will have to increase as has been suggested as recently as two weeks again when were 'told' not asked to pay an extra £1.2 billion resulting in our nett contribution increasing. As a nation whose infrastructure cannot meet the demand of the current UK national population, 50,000 education places short in the West Midlands, NHS under huge stress due to lack of investment, zero housing stock, to what extent do we get our own house in order before building someone elses in Macedonia FFS. The lesser member states are in no position to positively contribute to the EU in the short or long term and as such, economies like ours are set to support nations without an infrastructure or indeed the work ethic of this and other larger nations. Can you see a time in your lifetime when these minnows surviving on handouts actually give something back form which the UK actually will benefit. It is remaining in the EU which will affect our economy an economy incidentally which shows a current debt of 90% of total GDP and this can only get worse!!!! his is why our credit worthiness has been downgraded on the IMF. Do we want to deal with an EU economy which has stagnated and is in decline or a global economy on the up that will benefit every one of us..?
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