Black Football Managers - 'Rooney Rule'

[beardface]

It's like saying each olympic 100m race should have one white person in it.

Black people aren't being overlooked due to racism, it is due to a lack of quality minority managers. Those good enough to manage, are managing. Hughton is a perfect example. It's not as if Jose Mourinho would be on JSA if he was some form of minority.

 

[blackcatsteve]

I dont thin the problem is so much the PL as you have to have the Uefa Pro license to become a manager ( so i suppose Terry Conner must have, but he has had the opportunity with wolves having been there for 13 years, same as Chris Hughton).

But Paul Ince had to start his managerial career with Macclesfield whereas Gareth Southgate walked straight into the Boro Job with no qualifications at all.

Like we have been saying on our board, its a managerial merry go round, one gets sacked, is back in a job in the next 12-18 months, in the same division as where they were sacked from.

anyway the Pro licence you have to have 240 hours hands on experience, if black coaches never get a chance to coach even in the lower levels, how can they get that 240 hours to pass it to become managers in the PL.

But I dont think that racisim is the reason either, its just they may not be the best people for the job in question, but you will have to ask the boards of the 92 clubs that question.

 

[Rafa's Championship Party]

Ok then bud, let's do something. Let's just give folk the job whether they are any good or not just because of their skin colour eh?

That's what they do in police forces up & down the country man & that's why we're in the state we're in bud. Wrong people hired for the wrong reasons.

Skin colour should not be an issue. I f you are the best person for the job you should get it. If you are not, you should be ****ed off.

Just saying the numbers don't add up. Just convinced there are good black managers not getting a chance. I'm all for equal opportunities and think at times as a country we are too scared of being racist when dealing with employment.

 

[Billy Death]

Just saying the numbers don't add up. Just convinced there are good black managers not getting a chance. I'm all for equal opportunities and think at times as a country we are too scared of being racist when dealing with employment.

There's a lot of people in all walks of life note being given a chance mate.

Sometimes you just have to be in the right place at the right time.

 

[Cal.]

Double post

 

[Cal.]

Just saying the numbers don't add up. Just convinced there are good black managers not getting a chance. I'm all for equal opportunities and think at times as a country we are too scared of being racist when dealing with employment.

What numbers are you speaking about here? Or just saying numbers don't add up because you aren't actually trying to add up any numbers? According to 2009 estimates, roughly 1.5m people in England are black, out of a population of around 51.8m. That's 2.9% (to 1 d.p.). 92 professional football clubs in the football league. 92 * 0.029 = 2.7 (to 1 d.p). If we're purely talking proportional representation here, then 2-3 black managers is representative of the English population.

 

[Willa Pond]

Never been a big fan of positive discrimination - I tend to think it does more harm than good.

 

[I Sit Next To A Badger-Leazes Corner]

Never been a big fan of positive discrimination - I tend to think it does more harm than good.

I can't see there being anything positive about discrimination.

Its like the police force, they preach about diversity within the police and openly admit they want more women, ethnic minorities, gays etc... It's ridiculous.

 

[Rafa's Championship Party]

What numbers are you speaking about here? Or just saying numbers don't add up because you aren't actually trying to add up any numbers? According to 2009 estimates, roughly 1.5m people in England are black, out of a population of around 51.8m. That's 2.9% (to 1 d.p.). 92 professional football clubs in the football league. 92 * 0.029 = 2.7 (to 1 d.p). If we're purely talking proportional representation here, then 2-3 black managers is representative of the English population.

If there the stats then I stand corrected but I can see the other side of the argument to what I was arguing.

 

[Colly NUFC]

On principle I disagree with it, but as cbra says the proportion of 90's black players would indicate there should at least be a few coming through by now, and you can't possibly say 'they aren't good enough' when Steve Bruce keeps finding work. I don't think its a big stretch to suggest some aging chairmen might have a level of institutional racism thats at best putting them off 'taking the risk' on a black manager as if its anything more risky than a new white manager. Yes, discrimination of any kind is wrong, but in the short term if the Rooney rule could turn some of the prevalent thinking it could be a good thing. Someone dismissed Hope Powell earlier, but surely a former womens footballer with a coaching background at a high level should be more of a valid pick than the likes of Mourinho or Villas-Boas who've barely kicked a football?

Its an extreme measure to address a problem, but looking at the football league the problem is there, and just looking at how well its worked for the NFL means I can't dismiss it off hand.

 

[Hugh Briss]

Someone dismissed Hope Powell earlier, but surely a former womens footballer with a coaching background at a high level should be more of a valid pick than the likes of Mourinho or Villas-Boas who've barely kicked a football?

I didn't dismiss her at all - I simply used her as an example of how daft this 'Rooney Rule' really is.

I was saying that if it's required to take this action to get more black managers, why stop there?
Let's have a representative from every 'minority' group - Chinese, Indian, Polish... How about disabled candidates? Nobody shouting for them?

On your point about Jose Mourinho & AVB - JM is in my opinion the best football manager on the planet... and no, he didn't play much did he?
Proving that playing experience is no help in football management - look at Bryan Robson, one of the greatest players ever for England and Manchester United but a below average manager.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

Completely disagree with it in terms of English football. Completely irrelevant. If you prove yourself to be good, you'll get your chance.

Southgate being appointed at Boro is a unique situation where a senior player who has seen plenty in his time at the club is handed the reins. This has happened throughout time, sometimes as player/manager. Like Chris Powell at Charlton. Its not comparable to Ince who obviously did not convince anyone he was the right material to manage a higher level. You'd have to agree they were right so far. Plus Ince was fast tracked to Blackburn, not an opportunity afforded to many in the lower leagues.

I don't know enough about the situation in the US to comment. Many don't agree with the quota systems in south africa which were introduced because it was felt the undoubted history of racial prejudice restricted opportunities for black people. It was probably relevant there at one time and could be viewed as positive discrimination that was needed. However now there are white sportsman (KP is an example) who are fleeing the country because they feel their own opportunities are restricted by the quota system picking less talented black sportsman to appease the rules.

 

[Mod Face]

How many British-Asians are either playing or managing at a top level?

Adnan Ahmed - Has played some league football, currently at Bradford.
Zesh Rehmen - Notably Fulham and QPR but has since moved abroad.

No managers at a good level.

England has an approximate Asian population of 3 million.



This underepresentation is down to certain cultures and attitudes, it is not something that can be 'fixed' by a quota system.


If the Rooney Rule were in place and it was required to have at least one black manager on a shortlist, isn't that unfair to a would-be Asian manager?

"Oh but that doesn't matter, there's none that are at a good enough level?"

Hmmm.


If you are good enough, you should be considered. How embarrassing would it be for a manager to be 'shortlisted' just to make up numbers, it'd be an insult.

 

[Trypsin-1]

How many British-Asians are either playing or managing at a top level?

Adnan Ahmed - Has played some league football, currently at Bradford.
Zesh Rehmen - Notably Fulham and QPR but has since moved abroad.

No managers at a good level.

England has an approximate Asian population of 3 million.



This underepresentation is down to certain cultures and attitudes, it is not something that can be 'fixed' by a quota system.


If the Rooney Rule were in place and it was required to have at least one black manager on a shortlist, isn't that unfair to a would-be Asian manager?

"Oh but that doesn't matter, there's none that are at a good enough level?"

Hmmm.


If you are good enough, you should be considered. How embarrassing would it be for a manager to be 'shortlisted' just to make up numbers, it'd be an insult.

The rooney rule is for all ethnic minorities I think.

 

[Mod Face]

The rooney rule is for all ethnic minorities I think.

So you must have at least one 'ethnic' on your shortlist. Is it based on skin colour? What about say, an Irish manager? They are not given a bonus place because though they are of a different nationality, they are still white and 'one of us'?

It's racist tokenism and does nothing to help anyone. If a chairman is racist, being made to include a black manager on his shortlist is purely a PR stunt, if he had an agenda he would still not pick him so I fail to see what exactly it does?

 

[milner_for_england]

Surely the whole point of equality, is that everyone is equal. To propel any race above another purely because of skin colour or religion is quite simply ludicrous. As someone currently hunting a job, I find it demoralising on every advert which specifies they are looking for females, a certain religious group or guarantee disabled people an interview if they meet the basic qualifications. I have met the basic qualifications on probably 100 jobs, and have had about 4 interviews. I am not saying I want this to happen, as I believe it is wrong, but I am yet to find an advert which specifies they want a "White Male" as this would be classed as racist and sexist. So WHY are employers allowed to ask for roman catholics, people of other races or females.

 

[Hugh Briss]

Guess what?

The bottom line is that this entire motion is profound bullshit.

Funny that.

 

[Badgers Assemble]

Disgraceful. The effect of this is that a white manager could be excluded from the shortlist because of the colour of their skin. How is that equality?

This This This, Im mixed race and I strongly oppose this.

 

[Kyle?]

I favour the traditional rule. The best man for the job gets the job, regardless of creed or colour.

 

[Warmir Pouchov]

On principle I disagree with it, but as cbra says the proportion of 90's black players would indicate there should at least be a few coming through by now, and you can't possibly say 'they aren't good enough' when Steve Bruce keeps finding work. I don't think its a big stretch to suggest some aging chairmen might have a level of institutional racism thats at best putting them off 'taking the risk' on a black manager as if its anything more risky than a new white manager. Yes, discrimination of any kind is wrong, but in the short term if the Rooney rule could turn some of the prevalent thinking it could be a good thing. Someone dismissed Hope Powell earlier, but surely a former womens footballer with a coaching background at a high level should be more of a valid pick than the likes of Mourinho or Villas-Boas who've barely kicked a football?

Its an extreme measure to address a problem, but looking at the football league the problem is there, and just looking at how well its worked for the NFL means I can't dismiss it off hand.

Couldn't agree with the Hope Powell thing. Playing football and managing football is completely different. Look at Graeme Souness and the long list of former footballers who have failed. Mourinho studied under several great managers and put in the hard yards to become what he is today. Same goes AVB. Their understanding of what impacts on a match is probably far in excess of Powells understanding. I also believe that Powell would need to put in some serious study time to understand the subtle differences between the man and the womans game. You must remember mens football is far advanced from the womans game which is playing a significant game of catch up. Playing football should never be the be all and end all when choosing a manager.

I think previously there was an issue with opportunity and also a culture of black players not going into coaching/management. Some through choice, some through not believing they'll get a fair crack. Its no longer the case though and we have in recent times seen the likes of Ince, Chris Powell, John Barnes, Roseinor, Chris Hughton all given more opportunity than would have been previously afforded. There may be a small element of institutional racism remaining in ageing chairman but not enough to ever warrant a "Rooney" type rule.