So unmotivated they went and won the FA Cup?
You need to go and support spurs or City.
Arteta Out Thread.
- Thread starter TheBear
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You need to go and support spurs or City.
bit harsh that though - wanting a more successful manager and questioning whether we made the right choices doesn’t mean I need to go support another club.
I find this argument opens up a can of worms. It's one thing setting an objective at the start of a season. It's another thing entirely ignoring the changing facts on the ground and sticking to that objective as the season progresses.
FWIW, I will say that I think Arteta is improving you. The concern is he isn't doing it quickly enough. I emphasise that point because two things have happened since his goals were first set way back in August:
1) The Newcastle takeover.
2) The arrival of Conte at Spurs.
These two developments are massive in the broader argument of Arsenal's hopes of finishing in the top 4 next season. Newcastle will spend huge money to reel you (and us) in. We have the gravitas of Conte's name plus (hopefully) CL money to launch our own bid for the top 4 (although knowing us we'll lose to Norwich).
Once the reality on the ground changes, the goals have to as well. That's why whereas most Spurs fans would've been more than happy finishing 5th this season, once Conte was brought in, United's collapse became clear and Newcastle's ambition began to show, it became imperative that we secure CL football next season and without question if we screw it up on Sunday, fans will be seething.
This lack of adapting to the changing reality is precisely what overshadowed Wenger's final years and tbh the decision to award Arteta a new contract when you did hints that it hasn't gone away. True, 5th is technically "progress". But when you then factor into the equation the turmoil at Spurs and United, the takeover at Newcastle, your lack of cup football for almost 4 months - none of which could have possibly been known variables back in August when 5/6th was set as the objective; it isn't really much progress at all.
It was the same lack of ruthless ambition that led to your Jan window being such a disaster too. The club couldn't see 4th being a reality, so didn't invest to make it a reality.
For all the many mistakes he has made, Levy for once did the right thing, sacked a bang average manager, appointed a top class one, backed him in both directions (he was uncharacteristically generous in letting Conte kick unwanted players out), and at least made an effort to secure 4th, which I sincerely hope we now do or this post will be bookmarked by your entire forum
I'm sorry, but looking in from the outside, I just don't get it.
Well Spurs are actually in a weird situation because I don't think anyone expects Conte to stay for long. Levy is clearly nightmare to work for, Conte will ask for copious transfer funds that just arnt available.(nor should they be) I mean 12 months ago you guys took out a 160m loan on top of all the Stadium debt.
I would have thought your best course of action would be to rebuild with youth, improve the academy - those kinds of things. Contes not really the guy for that.
I just don't see this ending well. Spurs and Conte are NOT a match IMO.
Newcastle - hard to say how rigid FFP will be. I'm not convinced Howe is good enough to make TOP four even with massive resources.
I know how ;
A) gutted you must feel
and
B) how you'd have taken 5th at the beginning of the season, especially after the first 3 games.
But the brutal truth is that Arteta screwed up.
He did brilliantly to win the fa cup in 2020.
In 2021 he some how managed to finish behind a very broken spurs team and without EL football.
He was given a huge sum of money last summer (you spent the most of any club in Europe) so had his players.
He then got rid of players for no money so couldn't replace them in January.
By mid January Arsenal were out of both cups and only had the prem to worry about.
With just 12 games to go you were in 4th 6 points above us AND had a game in hand and had a plus 7 goal difference over us.
With just 3 games to go you were 4 points above us yet went into the final day 2 points behind us and we had a plus 15 goal difference over you.
Imho that's all on him...and after 2 whole seasons, with 5 transfer windows under his belt he has effectively handed us top 4... that not only damages your coming transfer windown, it also hugely improves ours...a slow start next season and he'll be gone imo.
A) gutted you must feel
and
B) how you'd have taken 5th at the beginning of the season, especially after the first 3 games.
But the brutal truth is that Arteta screwed up.
He did brilliantly to win the fa cup in 2020.
In 2021 he some how managed to finish behind a very broken spurs team and without EL football.
He was given a huge sum of money last summer (you spent the most of any club in Europe) so had his players.
He then got rid of players for no money so couldn't replace them in January.
By mid January Arsenal were out of both cups and only had the prem to worry about.
With just 12 games to go you were in 4th 6 points above us AND had a game in hand and had a plus 7 goal difference over us.
With just 3 games to go you were 4 points above us yet went into the final day 2 points behind us and we had a plus 15 goal difference over you.
Imho that's all on him...and after 2 whole seasons, with 5 transfer windows under his belt he has effectively handed us top 4... that not only damages your coming transfer windown, it also hugely improves ours...a slow start next season and he'll be gone imo.
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Re the loan...was a low rate long term loan iirc so doesn't cause us too many issues.
Looks like Lo Celso is off for £30m, Bergwijn for £15-20m, Winks for £8-10m and Carter Vickers for £6m ...that is £60-70m plus CL money plus any other sales with no transfer budget accounted for.
Levy can't piss conte about this summer so won't imho.
A full season under conte with his signings could be an exciting season for us.
Wonder if Nketiah fancies play CL football
Conte's track record of falling out with club hierarchies and leaving after a short stint of success is definitely a worry, but nothing else you've highlighted comes close to being true.
As RCL has already pointed out, the structure and amortisation schedule on the stadium was set up by Levy in such a way that it will not affect our ability to invest in the team. This is evidenced by the fact that we have broken our transfer record twice since moving and also successfully staved off interest in our best player during that time. With 2 NFL fixtures confirmed for Autumn plus strong rumours that Joshua-Usyk was just the first of a number of high profile bouts to be arranged at the stadium, income streams are stronger than any other stadium in the country and by quite a distance. 'Copious transfer funds' are available and have been for years; we've just largely wasted those budgets by signing crud.
And besides, the notion that Conte needs to spend a fortune to achieve success is a total myth. He has only ever spent more than £40m on a player twice in his whole career. One was a success (Lukaku at Inter), the other a complete flop (Morata at Chelsea). If anything, there is an irony that our best ever 'project' manager, Pochettino, spent £40m+ on players on more occasions than Conte (Sanchez, Ndombele and Lo Celso). What he does need is the freedom to bring in very specific targets who fully suit his system and here the hope is that Paratici will be able to deliver.
I thought the biggest departure from our 'traditonal' way of doing business would be a sudden influx of player in the twilight of their careers and with little to no sell-on value - a hallmark of a manager chasing short-term success at the expense of long-term sustainability. But then we went and signed a 21 and 24 year old in January which I guess was directly down to Paratici working closely with Conte to ensure that he gets what he wants without destroying Levy's business model in the process.
The summer will be huge, no question. There are at least half a dozen players who really need to leave the club (Winks, Lo Celso, Ndombele, Lucas, Bergwijn and one of the RWBs, ) and a bunch who need to go out on sensible loans. But I am hopeful that with allure of CL football, its revenue, the gravitas of Conte and the connections of Paratici, we're in a better situation than we've been in probably since our last season at WHL if I'm honest.
Yeah, I'm not expecting Spurs to capitulate like some other Arsenal fans do (which seems to be a narrative borne out of desperation than any objective reality). As long as Conte is happy, and feels supported in the transfer market, I think he will continue to build a side in his image and being in the CL is a massive aid to that. Obviously, he can be a volatile character and that's when you would need to worry, but I guess having Paratici there will help to smooth relations over in case there is ever any friction between Levy and himself. I don't see that happening anytime in the immediate future, though.
The big question mark is why you didn't hire him in the first place and opted for Nuno instead. A ludicrous decision that could have cost you this season had it been delayed any longer. If you'd hired Conte at the beginning of the season, I'm sure you would have had a CL spot wrapped up well before - none of this waiting until the last game nervousness that you experienced today (even if it was against already relegated Norwich). You potentially could have finished 3rd, ahead of Chelsea.
Contrary to what these tactical aficionados and Arteta loyalists on social media would have you believe, Spurs are better placed than Arsenal for long-term success in terms of revenue generation, competitiveness at the top of the table and squad building.
Arsenal may not have been expected to finish in the top-4 this season, but once the club realised Man United weren't at the races, and Spurs were lagging behind under Nuno, that was the moment they should have seized the bull by the horns and thrown everything at getting into the top-4. After all, how many times do we get opportunities like this? Instead, we weakened our squad in January, thinned it down further, didn't replace the players we needed to and banked on the fitness of injury-prone players to maintain the structure of the team.
This also highlights my concern though - with us, once a jigsaw piece is taken out, the whole puzzle unravels. If your team needs the perfect conditions and set-up to be able to thrive, then you need a rethink because the philosophy/system should be able to supersede personnel changes. Injuries happen. Players can lose form. There needs to be more flexibility/adaptability in terms of squad management and tactics.
Let's see if we can do some shrewd business in the Summer and if our younger players can take their level up a notch next season. It wouldn't hurt if we had a couple more academy players breakthrough, either. We need to rely on smart business and academy development progressing in a linear way if we want to challenge those in the top-4.
Nicely balanced post as per, BG.
No-one will ever know the true story behind our manager search. But the answer cannot be found in isolation. You'd need to trace a thread through time to the preposterous decision to sack Poch having just backed him to the tune of £140m in the summer due to a poor start. Then, you'd encounter the decision to replace him with the one manager no Spurs fan under the age of 16 wanted to see at the club. Damaged goods for a badly damaged squad and it was a matter of when rather than if the whole vanity project unravelled. Then the decision to sack him 6 days before the cup final. Then the unexpected (but highly predictable) decision for Nagelsmann to join Bayern, a move that apparently caught no-one by surprise but Levy. Then the utterly embarrassing managerial search that dragged out for months. The moronic decision to approach Poch and beg him to come back, then the attempt to get Conte which didn't work because he can smell bullshit from a mile off, then a game of hokey-cokey with Fonseca, a popular uprising over Gattuso, until honestly the only name left in the hat was Nuno's.
He basically became manager by default because we'd missed our main options.
The whole saga was a total mess but in a funny way, I'm glad for it. It brought ENIC to it's lowest ever point in terms of image and relationship with the fans and even in the 90's when on occasion we looked like relegation candidates, I don't remember it being as toxic as it got under Nuno. It was as if Levy had to see the gates of hell opening beneath him to finally realise the error of his ways. Rumour has it that Paratici stormed out of the stadium midway through our 0-3 defeat to United to call Conte. He then went straight up to the director's box to tell Levy to stop being a complete moron and do the right thing. I think Levy needed the rude awakening of the atmosphere that day to see the error of his ways and make his first sensible on-pitch decision in over 2 years.
And therein, in fairness, lies the difference between our owners and many others (yours included): Ultimately, when all is said and done and when all the criticism is weighed up, Levy and Lewis are Spurs fans born and bred. They would never countenance leaving the club in a worse position than when they found it. Other owners couldn't give a ****e about their club or its fans, so literally nothing compels them to do the right thing as long as the bank balance looks good.
To be honest we will have to be better next year just to make Top 4. Sure Chelsea and/or Tottenham could have a meltdown but I expect both will be better and United should be considerably stronger.
If Arteta finishes outside the top 4 again.. without a trophy, will he get sacked?
If Arteta finishes outside the top 4 again.. without a trophy, will he get sacked?
Not sure about sacked - but I think fans will start to turn. This is why I laugh when people talk about how hes "united the fan base" and the stadium is "positive". I really do think if he doesnt get CL football next season (or I supposed wins a trophy), many pro arteta fans will start questioning the process. It would have been 3 full seasons and a half season by then - unreal time in football these days to give a novice manager to achieve his targets.
As a prediction I think we will finish 6th next season, but I actually think we can win the Europa League.
So you think despite the incoming £150m investment we will finish 6th? - if that happens I hope he does get sacked.
I'm gonna predict 4th.
If we finished 6th, but won the Europa League, there's no chance he'd be sacked. None at all.
For me personally, I've said before that we have to see an improvement in the league, so if he won the Europa, we'd get CL football through the back door. If that scenario does arise, I'd keep him, but I'd still be extremely cautious about his future. We don't want to become known as a decent cup team who is average in the league. We should have higher standards than that. We should be striving for excellence on all fronts. Even if we can't reach it, we need to try.
Isn't that what's he's trying to do though ?
Winning the Europa League and getting back into the CL would be a double achievement imo and defo not to be sniffed at.
You have to remember where this squad and club were a little over 2 years ago, it was a tangled mess of aging players on massive wages, coaching staff, scouts etc coming and going, people at the club who didn't buy into the culture and history and no real forward plan.
In the ensuing period, we've seen steady progress and a massive shake up of the culture at the club. Deadwood players have pretty much been eradicated, the wage bill has been slashed, we've added solid additions to the squad and we now have a direction and an upwards trajectory, all built around a young team that's going to get better.
There are going to be ups and downs along the way, we can't expect it all to suddenly fall into place, but where we are right now is a much better place than we've been in for over 5 years.
I get that you'd have taken 5th if offered to you at the beginning of the season (so would I have) but after beating Chelsea away, United at home, West Ham away and Leeds at Home you were 4 points clear with just 3 games to go so I am generally surprised at the lack of frustration at Arteta throwing away a near certain guaranteed top four slot.
His team selections, tactics and in game management v Spurs and Newcastle cost you badly.
The worry for you is that you don't have CL to attract players or the pulling power of United or the money of Newcastle.
This window would have been do much better for you with CL so it'll be interesting to see how you get on.
The problem for both our teams is that both Chelsea and United will be in the market for 6 or 7 players each and Newcastle will be throwing money around like no one's business.
His team selections, tactics and in game management v Spurs and Newcastle cost you badly.
The worry for you is that you don't have CL to attract players or the pulling power of United or the money of Newcastle.
This window would have been do much better for you with CL so it'll be interesting to see how you get on.
The problem for both our teams is that both Chelsea and United will be in the market for 6 or 7 players each and Newcastle will be throwing money around like no one's business.
I believe most fans think we just were not quite ready for CL football, and the fact that our squad is so young gives us a chance to go again this next season (with better recruitment and another year of experience). Basically most had seen enough to suggest we can progress again and finally get back to the CL.
Make no mistake it was definitely a massive chance thrown away, but I think most have belief in the team now,
the issue for me is, Im still not sold on what we’ve done - like you said - you with conte will improve, united will surely improve, and Newcastle have an air of inevitability about them. So I guess we will see, it’s why I think this next season is make or break for arteta and it will be interesting to see how he handles his FIRST season of real pressure,
I’ve mentioned it before but I think our route back to the CL will eventually come (if it does come) through the Europa league, as the level of opposition is usually less there than fighting for top 4.
I actually don’t think missing out on CL will massively affect our recruitment this summer, I think the club had identified targets that would come regardless of Europa vs Champions league football.
but I guess we will see.
It is frustrating. As for those games, the ref ****ed it against your lot. Arteta could have switched Holding over to the other side when he was on a yellow. But ultimately the bizarre decisions the ref made handed that game to you. As for Newcastle, the players simply didn't turn up that evening. I'm not sure what else Arteta could have done that game, because they totally let him down.
As others have said, the reason we're not completely raging about missing out on top 4 is that we're not sure we were ready for CL football anyway. I think we would struggle in that comp atm and Europa is defo where we are at currently, and should be a comp that we have a decent chance of progressing in.
A 5th place finish is decent enough for where we are as a squad, remember we were bare bones from Jan onwards, and that is one criticism I do have of Arteta and the club, that they didn't at least bring in some cover, even on loan in Jan. But all the foundations are there, and we know this team are capable of finishing in the top 4 (with a deeper squad) and Spurs are only in it because we ****ed up
It is frustrating. As for those games, the ref ****ed it against your lot. Arteta could have switched Holding over to the other side when he was on a yellow. But ultimately the bizarre decisions the ref made handed that game to you. As for Newcastle, the players simply didn't turn up that evening. I'm not sure what else Arteta could have done that game, because they totally let him down.
As others have said, the reason we're not completely raging about missing out on top 4 is that we're not sure we were ready for CL football anyway. I think we would struggle in that comp atm and Europa is defo where we are at currently, and should be a comp that we have a decent chance of progressing in.
A 5th place finish is decent enough for where we are as a squad, remember we were bare bones from Jan onwards, and that is one criticism I do have of Arteta and the club, that they didn't at least bring in some cover, even on loan in Jan. But all the foundations are there, and we know this team are capable of finishing in the top 4 (with a deeper squad) and Spurs are only in it because we ****ed up
The NLD was on Arteta not the ref imho.
A major tactic was to target son to either nullify hime or to get him to retaliate.
Most refs would have given holding a yellow for the knee in the back of Son earlier on in the game and some would have given both Son and Holding yellows for the handbags on the floor for holdings second foul.
The first booking came from a pull back by hiding...that was at least his 3 foul. The ref had (about 10 mins earlier) given Davies a yellow for a pull back (his first foul) so the ref was consistent.
The second yellow could easily have been a straight red
I saw a compilation of Arsenal bloggers and the AFTV coverage and most gooners agreed the red was right.
The penalty was considered soft (which I get) but the ball was no where near Son when Cedric (?) barged him while he was jumping. If the ball had been there I don't think the penalty would have been given.
Blaming the ref for the second goal is a huge stretch. The original ball in went out for a corner.
Free kicks are often wrongly given ... you scored from one such free kick in a NLD a few years back in 2019 at your place.
I think you are letting Arteta off the hook by saying the ref cost you the game.
If you had defended the corner properly ...ie not leaving kane free a yard out you don't concede.
Not subbing White on after the red arguably cost you the second goal as a central defender would have picked up kane.
Plenty of people on line in real time said Holding was going to get a red after the first yellow so Arteta could have subbed him off for Ben White (admittedly a risk)
The way to have nullified Son would have been to defend deep and pack the midfield and play on the counter. Brighton, Wolves and Southampton all beat us doing that.
Leaving Ben White on the bench showed no foresight. I said to my daughter's and think I posted it on our match thread that he needed minutes cos he was definitely going to play against Newcastle. He looked rusty as **** in that game and MAY not have if he'd played the second half v us.
I know we won't agree but thought I'd bore you shirtless anyhows
Enjoy the weekend guys
I'd like to think so, but some of the things he's said in his interviews makes me question it. Pre-Everton, he said regardless of whether we get Europa or CL, it's been a much better season than people expected anyway. Which I don't entirely agree with. I expected a top-6 finish at the start of the season, and we achieved that, but that doesn't mean it was better than expected. We achieved par for the course. Let's not forget that last season was our first season out of Europe in 25 years. I'm 26, so that was a new experience for me and one I hope never happens again.
Next season, we need to kick on. If he wins the Europa, then fair enough, but if he doesn't and we finish 5th/6th again, then we need to look at changing manager. People have been relatively patient with him so far, but I think that patience will run out if we're not in a strong position next season (subject to investment of course).