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10 in 16 suggests he's more of a help than hindrance.

I believe they were plagued by injury which was the main cause of their drop in form, hence the emergency signings they made in January.
 
Mr. Hat said:
10 in 16 suggests he's more of a help than hindrance.

I believe they were plagued by injury which was the main cause of their drop in form, hence the emergency signings they made in January.
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That's a very simplistic way to look at it. What if he is not doing the other parts of his role and instead is just concentrating on scoring? It's no good having a free scoring winger if you concede a ****load of goals down that wing. And wasnt he directly at fault for a goal / penalty conceded recently leading to a fair bit of criticism?
 
Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
That's a very simplistic way to look at it. What if he is not doing the other parts of his role and instead is just concentrating on scoring? It's no good having a free scoring winger if you concede a ****load of goals down that wing. And wasnt he directly at fault for a goal / penalty conceded recently leading to a fair bit of criticism?
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Directly at fault for conceding one goal, directly responsible for scoring at least 10.

I know a few Derby fans and they think he's brilliant, they never mentioned him being at fault for poor form.

Personally I think your way of their form dipping since Ince signed, as if Tom is the reason, is more simplistic. Lots of teams drop off around the mid way stage.
 
Mr. Hat said:
Directly at fault for conceding one goal, directly responsible for scoring at least 10.

I know a few Derby fans and they think he's brilliant, they never mentioned him being at fault for poor form.

Personally I think your way of their form dipping since Ince signed, as if Tom is the reason, is more simplistic. Lots of teams drop off around the mid way stage.
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I dont know if it's one goal or more, that just made the new recently cos McClaren blamed him.

The simple fact is Tom was rubbish for us and Forest, no other Prem clubs wanted him and Derby's form has dipped massively since he went there (for whatever reason). These are facts. And people keep going on about these 10 mins here or there forgetting that he started the season as first choice.
 
Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
I dont know if it's one goal or more, that just made the new recently cos McClaren blamed him.

The simple fact is Tom was rubbish for us and Forest, no other Prem clubs wanted him and Derby's form has dipped massively since he went there for whatever reason. These are facts. And people keep going on about these 10 mins here or there forgetting that he started the season as first choice.
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The simple fact is, Swansea and Stoke both definitely wanted him for a start, he was MOM in his first game at forest, and can't remember now but think he played a grand total of about 5 minutes after that, he may have started the season as first choice, playing out of position up front, but was dropped for Hernandez as soon as he signed.

People keep forgetting he's only made one appearance I think in his natural position out on the wing.

We should shove Alex Bruce up front and see how he gets on. Once Jelavic is back we could play him at full back?
 
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Mr. Hat said:
The simple fact is, Swansea and Stoke both definitely wanted him for a start, he was MOM in his first game at forest, and can't remember now but think he played a grand total of about 5 minutes after that, he may have started the season as first choice, playing out of position up front, but was dropped for Hernandez as soon as he signed.

People keep forgetting he's only made one appearance I think in his natural position out on the wing.

We should shove Alex Bruce up front and see how he gets on. Once Jelavic is back we could play him at full back?
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How do you know it's fact that Swansea and Stoke wanted him? And if he chose us over them 2 then he's mental then.

And how did he do in that game in his 'natural position'? And those positional changes you've suggested are not the same are they? Rather than up-front it would be like asking Bruce to play full back, which he has done. And anyway, Ince has regularly played behind either one or 2 strikers throughout his career, so it's a completely moot point.

He made another 5 appearances at Forest. Admittedly it is tough when you play 1 min per game....
 
Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
How do you know it's fact that Swansea and Stoke wanted him? And if he chose us over them 2 then he's mental then.
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Swansea were definitely in talks with him in Jan 2014, Stoke made an enquiry about a permanent deal just before he went on loan to Palace, but Blackpool wanted too much money.

He's been poor for us, there's no doubt about it, but it's also true that he hasn't been played in his best position for us and that position is definitely on the wing. McClaren thinks that without him, they'd be nowhere near the top six, he thinks he's pretty much single handedly kept them in the running, so trying to pin their drop in form on him seems rather a stretch, McClaren obviously knows more about how he's played for Derby than we do.
 
originallambrettaman said:
Swansea were definitely in talks with him in Jan 2014, Stoke made an enquiry about a permanent deal just before he went on loan to Palace, but Blackpool wanted too much money.

He's been poor for us, there's no doubt about it, but it's also true that he hasn't been played in his best position for us and that position is definitely on the wing. McClaren thinks that without him, they'd be nowhere near the top six, he thinks he's pretty much single handedly kept them in the running, so trying to pin their drop in form on him seems rather a stretch, McClaren obviously knows more about how he's played for Derby than we do.
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Yeah i read those quotes but what is he going to say: "we were top when we signed Ince on loan, we're now well out of the running. Draw your own conclusions"? Of course he's not. And out of interest how do you know Swansea were in talks with him?

When Ince played for England U21's before he got too big for his boots, he played centrally behind the strikers. Strange that if he's so good on the wing he would be shifted to the heart of the action but out of position.
 
Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
Yeah i read those quotes but what is he going to say: "we were top when we signed Ince on loan, we're now well out of the running. Draw your own conclusions"? Of course he's not. And out of interest how do you know Swansea were in talks with him?

When Ince played for England U21's before he got too big for his boots, he played centrally behind the strikers. Strange that if he's so good on the wing he would be shifted to the heart of the action but out of position.
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McClaren could have said nothing, he certainly didn't need to go to the press and say he wants him on a permanent ffs.

Swansea City confirmed they were in talks with him, BBC Wales reported that he'd arrived at the Liberty Stadium for talks, then later in the week issued a statement saying - "After international discussions, we decided to pursue other options, he was informed last night."
 
originallambrettaman said:
McClaren could have said nothing, he certainly didn't need to go to the press and say he wants him on a permanent ffs.

Swansea City confirmed they were in talks with him, BBC Wales reported that he'd arrived at the Liberty Stadium for talks, then later in the week issued a statement saying - "After international discussions, we decided to pursue other options, he was informed last night."
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I very much doubt McClaren did go to the press about it. I can't imagine for one minute he'd be on the blower ringing around media telling them his thoughts on Tom Ince. It's slightly more likely that he was asked a question about how he thinks Tom is doing and in that eventuality what does he do - say nothing at all and create a really strange situation or does he praise the player? A bit like yesterday when Rodgers was asked how he thought Gerrard played. I mean, I'm only guessing, I've no experience of media interviews or press conferences or how the general questioning of football people goes....

Well that sounds pretty conclusive then :emoticon-0148-yes: So I wonder why they called it off if they were so keen?
 
Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
I very much doubt McClaren did go to the press about it. I can't imagine for one minute he'd be on the blower ringing around media telling them his thoughts on Tom Ince. It's slightly more likely that he was asked a question about how he thinks Tom is doing and in that eventuality what does he do - say nothing at all and create a really strange situation or does he praise the player? A bit like yesterday when Rodgers was asked how he thought Gerrard played. I mean, I'm only guessing, I've no experience of media interviews or press conferences or how the general questioning of football people goes....
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"If we hadn't got Tom Ince and others in January we wouldn't be in the top six. He has scored goals and created them and he is my type of player," McClaren told Sky Sports News. "I think he's been good for us and we've been good for him. I haven't spoken to Steve Bruce but we would like to keep him."

McClaren's an experienced manager, one who's just raised expectations among Derby fans and put himself under pressure to try and sign him in the summer. You think he might have done this by accident, or for no reason other than to make the player feel good? I don't think you need a qualification in jounalism to see he rates the lad.

Bum_Chinned_Crab said:
Well that sounds pretty conclusive then :emoticon-0148-yes: So I wonder why they called it off if they were so keen?
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Probably just thought he was a bit of a twat. Or that his dad was a bit of a twat. Or both.
 
Isn't this a bit like having a pitch battle on the deck of the Titanic?

Surely you should all be focused on supporting your side in the relegation battle that you're in the midst of?

Save arguing over the off field bollocks until the 25th May.
 
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originallambrettaman said:
"If we hadn't got Tom Ince and others in January we wouldn't be in the top six. He has scored goals and created them and he is my type of player," McClaren told Sky Sports News. "I think he's been good for us and we've been good for him. I haven't spoken to Steve Bruce but we would like to keep him."

McClaren's an experienced manager, one who's just raised expectations among Derby fans and put himself under pressure to try and sign him in the summer. You think he might have done this by accident, or for no reason other than to make the player feel good? I don't think you need a qualification in jounalism to see he rates the lad..
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But my point is how did this come about? He didn't - or I'd be stunned if he had - just pick up the phone and call Sky Sports News. Someone in a presser where Sky were present would've asked "how is Tom Ince getting on and would you like to sign him?" Even if he didn't want to sign him what do you think he'd say? The best he could possibly give back would be "He's Hull's player and we'll speak to them and Tom in the summer". By praising him he might get a few good performances out of him between now and the end of the season. There is no situation on earth when he would ever criticise him or stay silent.

originallambrettaman said:
"Probably just thought he was a bit of a twat. Or that his dad was a bit of a twat. Or both.
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Precisely. And some people say we should have him back. It's pretty obvious the lad is toxic and he'll join the long list of talented youngsters who faded if he doesn't change his approach.
 
Tobes said:
Isn't this a bit like having a pitch battle on the deck of the Titanic?

Surely you should all be focused on supporting your side in the relegation battle that you're in the midst of?

Save arguing over the off field bollocks until the 25th May.
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We are focused but they aren't playing today so there is not a lot we can do.
 
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