Yeah I agree with the principle, nobody can argue Speakman hasn't added serious value to the squad, it just seems like misplaced funds. And will some of the investments pay off if they are 4th choice in their position?
New Head Coach
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To make a point about evidence contradicting a point of view, I've got to disagree there. Evidence can be interpreted in different ways and also be given more or less weight depending on the view that it is intended to support. Therefore, using evidence does not definitively prove or disprove views as its manner of use is subjective.
If we're basing our approach on here on our working lives, then mine is focused on attention to detail, the recovery of evidence, and the construction of logical arguments based upon that evidence. Any assertion that cannot be supported by verifiable evidence holds no value until evidence to support it can be identified.
True, but to counter an argument based on evidence, you have to be able to demonstrate evidence that contradicts it or a method of interpreting the original evidence that contradicts the argument it is being used to make.
I don't know. As a newcomer it does very much feel like lines have been drawn, the same four or five posters consistently butting heads with the same four or five other posters. That's something you lot have to sort out for yourselves though, I don't know how deep or how long it's been going.
Debate is only healthy when there's a willingness to consider each other points is all I would say. Not when all you're looking to do is score a point.
That doesn't mean only one side has an agenda though
What doesn't?
Edit: and right about what? My argument is that we should give the next Head Coach time and judge the club on what we know, rather than what we're guessing at. Surely that's just logic and doesn't demand taking a position where anyone is either right or wrong?
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I’ve stayed out of this discussion last few days as it’s an absolute mess of “my opinion’s more important than your opinion”. Like twitter. I think I’m pretty much done here.
same stuff over and over and over and over and over again. In every thread.
Anyway, my position is I’d be happy with Heckingbottom or Still. I expect more names to come into it as we enter May.
Re: Speakman, I’m on the fence. Personally would rather he went, but I’m not going to be annoyed if he stays.
Re: Dodds - he shouldn’t continue as assistant but I see absolutely no reason he shouldn’t stay as a first team coach. I don’t believe that his presence in that role will put coaches off as much as some are making out. Obviously keeping him as assistant would tho.
My biggest priority for SAFC is frankly none of this. We need Rigg to sign his pro deal. The rest is noise that will sort itself out.
I hope this forum gets back to some sort of normality once the summer window closes.
same stuff over and over and over and over and over again. In every thread.
Anyway, my position is I’d be happy with Heckingbottom or Still. I expect more names to come into it as we enter May.
Re: Speakman, I’m on the fence. Personally would rather he went, but I’m not going to be annoyed if he stays.
Re: Dodds - he shouldn’t continue as assistant but I see absolutely no reason he shouldn’t stay as a first team coach. I don’t believe that his presence in that role will put coaches off as much as some are making out. Obviously keeping him as assistant would tho.
My biggest priority for SAFC is frankly none of this. We need Rigg to sign his pro deal. The rest is noise that will sort itself out.
I hope this forum gets back to some sort of normality once the summer window closes.
The marketing folk at Gillette would say otherwise, they're paid to, but I would suggest Hitchen's is the best of the Razors.
Do not be done here, people of your temperament are absolutely necessary for balance.
To counter the argument you made here:
https://www.not606.com/threads/new-head-coach.409817/page-389#post-17457983
CD: "I don't need stats or accents to help me see the matches and how the football was getting worse under Beale and how he couldn't see when things were going wrong quickly enough - he's just a really poor manager.
You are judging him against a sample of Mowbrays worst spell as well for some daft reason - so if Beale is nearly the equal of Mowbray spell that got him sacked it isn't a great achievement or argument you are making imo."
NC: "The argument that I'm making is that the poor performance this season is down to more than the head coach. Mowbray and Beale were getting similar results. Very little change, even under a coach that you think is useless. That indicates that the team/squad were performing at about their natural level, regardless of who the coach was. Therefore, driving the coach out based on people not liking his history or they way he said things is ridiculous.
The lesson that needs to be learnt from this is, the next head coach needs to be given time and to be judged against results over that prolonged period and against the quality of his squad."
The quality of our creative football declined significantly under Beale. I've taken these stats from an article on 21st January (Beale was sacked on 19th February):
https://www.sunderlandafc.news/opin...is-dreyfus-must-sack-michael-beale-right-now/
"As per The Mackem Analyst, four out of five of Sunderland’s lowest xG this season have come under Michael Beale so far – Rotherham (0.35), Preston (0.5), Hull (0.7) and Ipswich (0.8). In fact, the fifth one only really came under Mowbray because we were forced to play 45 minutes with only 10 men against Middlesbrough (0.55).
The Wearside club have managed only five goals in the seven games Beale has taken charge of in all competitions, while they netted seven goals in Mowbray’s final seven games at the helm.
Beale has got this team playing some of the most boring football we have ever seen at the Stadium of Light, and buying a new striker isn’t going to change that.
Lower PPG than Mowbray
While we all know Sunderland wanted Michael Beale because he was prepared to just be a ‘head coach’ and leave the rest to the board, he was also expected to improve the club’s chances of promotion.
While it has only been six games, the former Rangers boss has arguably ruined our chances further – whilst also sprinkling in a 3-0 hammering by Newcastle United too.
Beale has led the Black Cats to two wins, three defeats and one draw in the Championship, leaving them in 10th place – three points from sixth, but also another three from 14th.
As per journalist Michael Graham, Tony Mowbray was sacked by Sunderland with 27 points from 19 games and a PPG (points per game) of 1.42, while Beale now has a PPG of 1.16. If the current boss had started the season and kept up that stat, we would have been sat in 19th."
The PPG did recover from that point but there's a strong argument that the creative quality of the football declined with Beale.
P.S. I know I'm flogging a dead horse as we are talking about a past coach
Well said mate n i hope you stay on
Ive been on here less n less as cant be done with the point scoring n the same things being said over n over again
It will get bsck to what it was before, think most just want to get to the summer n see what happens
I realise I've been at the forefront of the arguments this morning, but I've been trying to steering clear recently too. The problem is, you come on, the same things are being said as the last time you were on, and you get sucked back in.
Good point. There's no denying that the football wasn't as good under Beale.
I've got no problem with the new coach being told dodds is staying, he's regarded as a top coach so why would the new man have a problem with that as long as he can bring in at least his assistant.
None of us know what the set up is but any coaches work to the head coaches say so, not the DOF.
As I say none of us know the set up but there's supposed to be a way the club wants us as a team, the DOF should find a head coach who will implement that, it is the head coaches job to be in control of the first team and the coaches, that bit should not involve the DOF.
His job is now to seek out the players so the head coach can do his job properly.
There's a lot of rumours about KS deciding who should be playing, is this true we don't know, if it is then Speakman should go and you can understand why TM and AN were frustrated, however I don't think it is the case , but then again non of us do.
I'm sure there are discussions when things aren't going well, I'm sure the DOF will be mentioning thing aren't going well and the head coach will be saying we'll you've signed the wrong ****ing players.
So many comments going about that Speakman is running every part of the club, I'm sure that's not the case
Take it with a pinch of salt. I choose not to believe Nixon. He hasn’t got an inside track and is basing it on very little.
We really need to roll out the barrel if Rigg stays.
fans have done their bit though and cheered every tackle and great pass and standing ovations as he goes off.
No it wasn’t, I don’t think I have mentioned the Head Coach. When you look back you first quoted mine and asked, “what’s he done wrong” ie Speakman, and it went from there. You claimed that you were fed up of having to respond to people even though the “evidence is presented to them”. Those that have declared they don’t rate Speakman will have their reasons as you do for liking him. But at the end of the day, as I have said repeatedly, they don’t have an agenda that would want to see the club implode to say, that they were right along. That is all I have responded to today
I could say, those that are claiming others have an agenda, have an agenda.
Good point and I made the same commitment until today, but I succumbed. I apologise for that, we all want the same thing, it’s just we have different view points how to get there. It makes nobody right or wrong or that they have an agenda
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