PJust; aka The Chuckle Brothers #mastertactician

[BobbyD]

Vardy's had one good season - is that a gem? Mahrez similarly, he's had a slow start to this season so still can't be classed a gem ... yet.

Vardys had a World class season last yearHe was being bandied around for 20 odd/30 million quid at his age

Mahrez again had a world class season, he's been touted in the ballon d'or is being bandied around for 40 odd million.

I will agree they've only had 1 successful season in the prem (they were successful in lower league).

Would you rate Sturridge or Coutinho as world class?

Vardys one season has bettered any season sturridge has ever had and sturridge has only really 1 class season.

Coutinho (i do rate him really high) but statistically has only had pretty good seasons. He's never reached double figures for goals or assists. Mahrez smashed it last season even when he was getting double and triple teamed.

Kante again has only had the 1 season in UK football. These 3 players alone were the catalysts for a Premier league title, They haven't had enough time to show what they are about but on their brief spark in the PL, i would say 2 definite gems in mahrez and kante and vardy is half a gem.

 

[Zanjinho]

Vardys had a World class season last yearHe was being bandied around for 20 odd/30 million quid at his age

Mahrez again had a world class season, he's been touted in the ballon d'or is being bandied around for 40 odd million.

I will agree they've only had 1 successful season in the prem (they were successful in lower league).

Would you rate Sturridge or Coutinho as world class?

Vardys one season has bettered any season sturridge has ever had and sturridge has only really 1 class season.

Coutinho (i do rate him really high) but statistically has only had pretty good seasons. He's never reached double figures for goals or assists. Mahrez smashed it last season even when he was getting double and triple teamed.

Kante again has only had the 1 season in UK football. These 3 players alone were the catalysts for a Premier league title, They haven't had enough time to show what they are about but on their brief spark in the PL, i would say 2 definite gems in mahrez and kante and vardy is half a gem.

No (imo) but I guess that depends on your definition of world class...

Would he make a world 23 squad? Are there better players in his position? Would he look out of his depth in any team in the world? Etc...

Coutinho is definitely on the right path though.


I actually think part of the reason we're looking so good this season is because we don't have a standout world class player, we have a team!

 

[johnsonsbaby]

the funny thing baout the list is a lot of them were going noplace under nigel pearson and suddenly ranieiri comes in and its massive achievement all at once

The thing i think about is how the whole package works. Everton have long standing systems what have identified and recruited well locally and aorund the other leagues etc, they have appointed this guy form leicester and a new manager so how they work together is whats important not what walsh brings on his own.

I mean he might have a list of targets from his scoutng for leicester but that is that list and it may be largely irrelevant for a club like everton looking for bigger players than danny simpson.

koeman brought tadic and pelle in form his experience but after that spurs took southamptons scout guy and the next thing koeman was buying rubbish...

like... Everton will just have to see how they all work together and its about talent not names so we will see if the moshimonster sticks his oar in too.

I agree with all of that. Everton have always been good at spotting talent - didn't Moyes negotiate sole rights to FM data base or something like that, because the lad who invented it was a bluenose.

I also agree with your very astute point that players perform differently for different managers so e.g. Ranieri takes as much credit for Vardy and Mahrez coming to the fore as Walsh who's scouting initially provided two bench warmers.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Vardys had a World class season last yearHe was being bandied around for 20 odd/30 million quid at his age

Mahrez again had a world class season, he's been touted in the ballon d'or is being bandied around for 40 odd million.

Kante again has only had the 1 season in UK football. These 3 players alone were the catalysts for a Premier league title, They haven't had enough time to show what they are about but on their brief spark in the PL, i would say 2 definite gems in mahrez and kante and vardy is half a gem.

And yet as mito rightly pointed out both were bench warmers until Ranieri turned up.

If you used your logic [and players mentioned] here then our infamous transfer committee are on a par with Walsh as they unearthed our gems Sturridge and Coutinho.

Oh and Vardy's last season didn't better any season Sturridge has had, he scored 28 goals in 2013/14

 

[BobbyD]

And yet as mito rightly pointed out both were bench warmers until Ranieri turned up.

If you used your logic [and players mentioned] here then our infamous transfer committee are on a par with Walsh as they unearthed our gems Sturridge and Coutinho.

Oh and Vardy's last season didn't better any season Sturridge has had, he scored 28 goals in 2013/14

I was looking at premier league only. This is probably true but i didn't bother including the mickey mouse cups.

Its also why i was asking for your definition of a gem.

Sturridge was pretty well known and had a good record and it was always his injury record. I would say he became class at liverpool but he was hardly plucked from obscurity like Vardy Mahrez or Kante.

Coutinho is one i would attribute as a gem unearthed by Liverpool as he was sat rotting on inters bench. If i use your definition though Coutinhos not exactly been brilliant in any of the seasons hes played though .

As for sitting on the bench, Mahrez and Vardy actually clocked up around the same amount of game time as firmino did last season as they did in the first season. Mahrez had pretty average goals and assists (similar to lallana in his prior seasons) and Vardy contributed as much as firmino in the league in his first season (~20 goals+assists combined).

Now i know you can't just look at goals and assists but i think it tells a big picture of the story. I think you would find it hard for anyone to class firmino as a giant vardy-esque flop

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I was looking at premier league only. This is probably true but i didn't bother including the mickey mouse cups.

Its also why i was asking for your definition of a gem.

Sturridge was pretty well known and had a good record and it was always his injury record. I would say he became class at liverpool but he was hardly plucked from obscurity like Vardy Mahrez or Kante.

Coutinho is one i would attribute as a gem unearthed by Liverpool as he was sat rotting on inters bench. If i use your definition though Coutinhos not exactly been brilliant in any of the seasons hes played though .

As for sitting on the bench, Mahrez and Vardy actually clocked up around the same amount of game time as firmino did last season as they did in the first season. Mahrez had pretty average goals and assists (similar to lallana in his prior seasons) and Vardy contributed as much as firmino in the league in his first season (~20 goals+assists combined).

Now i know you can't just look at goals and assists but i think it tells a big picture of the story. I think you would find it hard for anyone to class firmino as a giant vardy-esque flop

You didn't ask for my definition of a gem. You went on a lot about world class though

Also why are you comparing our players with those spotted by 'super scout Walsh' ? Unless you want to compare our scouting success with his .... My whole point is I don't rate Walsh like others seem to.

 

[BobbyD]

You didn't ask for my definition of a gem. You went on a lot about world class though

Also why are you comparing our players with those spotted by 'super scout Walsh' ? Unless you want to compare our scouting success with his .... My whole point is I don't rate Walsh like others seem to.

I didnt say they were world class. I said the had world class seasons (not sure anyone can deny that, great stats and a league title). I did say they were gems for the quality in relation to then being plucked from obscurity and costing very little.

I made the comparisson with liverpool players because i know you are nore likely to say x pool player is great. With respect to the players you have bought coutinho i think is a gem especially for the cost. I also think firmino is a very good player but he was pretty known by all big clubs before you guys paid a lot of money for him so i would hardly define that as good scouting work.

I'm just arguing why lots of people rate walshes work and if you dont fair enough but for those who dont have any idea ive just presented the facts as they are.

For example you and mito didnt know vardy bagged 5 goals and got accredited with 12 assists (i didnt know til i looked it up) in that season under pearson when he only really started playing in the 2nd half of the season

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I didnt say they were world class. I said the had world class seasons (not sure anyone can deny that, great stats and a league title). I did say they were gems for the quality in relation to then being plucked from obscurity and costing very little.

I made the comparisson with liverpool players because i know you are nore likely to say x pool player is great. With respect to the players you have bought coutinho i think is a gem especially for the cost. I also think firmino is a very good player but he was pretty known by all big clubs before you guys paid a lot of money for him so i would hardly define that as good scouting work.

I'm just arguing why lots of people rate walshes work and if you dont fair enough but for those who dont have any idea ive just presented the facts as they are.

For example you and mito didnt know vardy bagged 5 goals and got accredited with 12 assists (i didnt know til i looked it up) in that season under pearson when he only really started playing in the 2nd half of the season

In fairness to you, you do lay your side of an argument out very clearly which makes for good discussion rather than the lazy wums we often encounter on here

 

[Peej]

Buying gems or getting the right players in for the club.

In the past it's been a bit of both at Goodison. Walsh was recruited for a reason, if he delivers a gem in the form of Gana who was gash for Villa then has been brilliant for us.....fine.

If the club splashes £20m on a striker who fits the system that's fine too.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Buying gems or getting the right players in for the club.

In the past it's been a bit of both at Goodison. Walsh was recruited for a reason, if he delivers a gem in the form of Gana who was gash for Villa then has been brilliant for us.....fine.

If the club splashes £20m on a striker who fits the system that's fine too.

Everyone's recruited for a reason.

If you get a good player in it will be because Walsh is great, if the player's not so good it will be because Walsh is average. Just like happens at every other club. The main difference I see is that you're [not you personally] are putting it all on one man, when there's a whole scouting team working on it. Walsh would have to work very hard to convince me. Had Leicester not had a great season, nobody [other than Leicester] would know who he was. Just by way of contrast, for all the scorn thrown at our 'committee' it's actually got us some pretty good players.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Everyone's recruited for a reason.

If you get a good player in it will be because Walsh is great, if the player's not so good it will be because Walsh is average. Just like happens at every other club. The main difference I see is that you're [not you personally] are putting it all on one man, when there's a whole scouting team working on it. Walsh would have to work very hard to convince me. Had Leicester not had a great season, nobody [other than Leicester] would know who he was. Just by way of contrast, for all the scorn thrown at our 'committee' it's actually got us some pretty good players.

Isn't this why walsh is paid the big bucks though... he's the head guy so his relationship with koeman, the board and his scouting department are all vital. He is paid to take the flak and he will take the credit but we all should know its a whole organisational effort. A manager is paid to take the flak and if say he sends a scout over to france and they come back singing the praises of this 25 year old banging in goals for sport and he looks so happy and everyone loves him.... but its mario baolotelli... well if everton signed him on the scouts recommendation its walsh's head not the scouts

seriously the guy's role for me is to develop the organisation and to work to deliver what koeman identifies. There's little point if the performance analysis bods and koeman sit down and decide they need a CB<LB and CM for tobes and walsh goes off sending scouts looking for an RB, RW and ST....

IMO instant success is more than rare.. its virtually impossible. Walsh was working for years at leicester and was in ranieiri's ear about kante to convince him to go for the guy. I got educated on this by someone so i found it interesting. Koeman brougth tadic and pelle to the table form old clubs but the Southampton guys brought mane, bertrand, forester etc to the table too.. it all came together with mad LFC money (and utd money) and they went from there.

At this point.... Everton need their scouts to be bringing players to koeman as i have not seen evidence since that koeman has any great network really.

walsh must bring it all together and serve koeman.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Isn't this why walsh is paid the big bucks though... he's the head guy so his relationship with koeman, the board and his scouting department are all vital. He is paid to take the flak and he will take the credit but we all should know its a whole organisational effort. A manager is paid to take the flak and if say he sends a scout over to france and they come back singing the praises of this 25 year old banging in goals for sport and he looks so happy and everyone loves him.... but its mario baolotelli... well if everton signed him on the scouts recommendation its walsh's head not the scouts

seriously the guy's role for me is to develop the organisation and to work to deliver what koeman identifies. There's little point if the performance analysis bods and koeman sit down and decide they need a CB<LB and CM for tobes and walsh goes off sending scouts looking for an RB, RW and ST....

IMO instant success is more than rare.. its virtually impossible. Walsh was working for years at leicester and was in ranieiri's ear about kante to convince him to go for the guy. I got educated on this by someone so i found it interesting. Koeman brougth tadic and pelle to the table form old clubs but the Southampton guys brought mane, bertrand, forester etc to the table too.. it all came together with mad LFC money (and utd money) and they went from there.

At this point.... Everton need their scouts to be bringing players to koeman as i have not seen evidence since that koeman has any great network really.

walsh must bring it all together and serve koeman.

I take on board everything you say here and for the most part it is in line with my thinking. Kante has adapted well to the league, not just the one club he was brought to. So a success story ..... so far. Maybe I'm being unfair to Walsh, I don't know. I really don't have anything against him. I just think when a club has a great scouting network, why pick out one individual.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I take on board everything you say here and for the most part it is in line with my thinking. Kante has adapted well to the league, not just the one club he was brought to. So a success story ..... so far. Maybe I'm being unfair to Walsh, I don't know. I really don't have anything against him. I just think when a club has a great scouting network, why pick out one individual.

I agree, he is merely the face of the organisation and the guy who gets it in the neck or takes the credit. That is sadly the way of the world in most businesses and I'm sure we all know climbers who take credit for others work.

 

[Peej]

People mention this guy at Southampton who went to spurs.....

Did he scout Jansen and Sissoko. He was touted as the reason Southampton did well recruitment wise under Koeman.....but that's two shockers!

The scouting at Goodison has its faults, just look at Naisse! Plus for every good player the committee looks to have delivered, there has been flops at Liverpool.

For every Sturridge you have a Balotelli

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

People mention this guy at Southampton who went to spurs.....

Did he scout Jansen and Sissoko. He was touted as the reason Southampton did well recruitment wise under Koeman.....but that's two shockers!

The scouting at Goodison has its faults, just look at Naisse! Plus for every good player the committee looks to have delivered, there has been flops at Liverpool.

For every Sturridge you have a Balotelli

he must have done. he is the head of recruitment.

Janssen is really a bit of a donkey. but then poch might have looked and said hey i want these guys too.. who knows.

Its a whole team structure IMO... its not a lets let everyone have their ay but it is a serious organisation of 50-100 peopel and someone has to manage it.

LFC has guys guying who they wanted not who orgers wanted and trading you get him if i get him stuff... madness.

 

[Zingy]

he must have done. he is the head of recruitment.

Janssen is really a bit of a donkey. but then poch might have looked and said hey i want these guys too.. who knows.

Its a whole team structure IMO... its not a lets let everyone have their ay but it is a serious organisation of 50-100 peopel and someone has to manage it.

LFC has guys guying who they wanted not who orgers wanted and trading you get him if i get him stuff... madness.

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[moreinjuredthanowen]

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I have no idea <laugh.>

I might have been saying... "LFC had guys Buying who they wanted not who rogers wanted and then horse trading in a "you get him if i get him" sort of way... madness.

but who knows.

 

[Garlic Klopp]

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[astro]

They say they're not [HASHTAG]#bitters[/HASHTAG] then they kick off over red Christmas decorations

[HASHTAG]#santaisared[/HASHTAG]

 

[Justovertheline]

They say they're not [HASHTAG]#bitters[/HASHTAG] then they kick off over red Christmas decorations

[HASHTAG]#santaisared[/HASHTAG]

Proves all clubs have Astro's eh lol