Match Day Thread +++++Man Utd v Saints Friday 19th August 8pm+++++
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So taking one match this season to relate to one match last season and declaring that we're likely to be more aesthetically pleasing is a much more meaningful comparison?
Than yours, yes.
We are two games in, so perhaps it's too early to make any comparisons, or draw any meaningful conclusions. Doesn't seem to have stopped anyone though, yourself included.
Right... I haven't read all the comments since my last post and I just want to post a few of my thoughts. I'm pretty drunk so I apologise in advance if I make little sense or if the order is ****ed up...
1- I thought we played pretty well, much better than I was expecting and it has made me feel less 'concerned' about the season as a whole. At times I think we looked very similar as we did under Koeman - who despite what some say was a brilliant manager for us, arguably the best in a generation.
2- I'm still unsure about the diamond, though I think calls for it to be dropped are premature. It's still early days and it's clear the team are still getting used to it. I've seen a few people (not on this thread) saying it's never worked in the PL. I ask those people to look back at Liverpool in 13/14. Though one thing I will say is I hope we are prepared to switch up during the season. Versatility is key and as much as I don't want to bring Ron up again I think this is something which made us so strong last couple of years.
3- There's no shame in losing to United. I know we won our last 2 games up there but they're quite clearly a different animal now, and as I mentioned before the game they seem to have some momentum which they haven't had since Fergie retired. Taking everything into account they are my favourites to win the league.
4- Thought Fonte had a good game, doesn't seem to be too distracted by speculation though I think it's imperative we keep him.
5- Think Targett was pretty decent too, yes he lacks pace but i can think of a few times he was beaten yet got back to make a block/tackle. Clearly Bertrand is a step above but reckon we'd struggle to find a better back up. Plus as he's an academy player (which is something we pride ourselves on and makes us unique as a club), he should be getting more suuport from some fans than what he's currently getting imo.
5- Yes we can say despite all our good play we didn't create a lot but as I can remember this has been a problem for a long time so nothing new. Again think it's also worth noting the opposition & the manager. Would be suprised if they didn't win at least 14/19 of their home games.
6- Hojberg looks class, thought he struggled with the pace of the game for the first ten mins or so but grew into the game and you can see what a wonderful footballer he is. Will only get better as season goes on.
7- I'm still concerned about the DM position. Though Clasie done well (bar the pen) when he came on I think we are very light there. I personally think some underrate how good Vic is/was (and did during his time here too!) I also feel we lack a bit of height which is pretty important in PL.
7- Regarding points 1, 2 & 5. I think a lot of that only applies once we sign a few players. I've said before that we will struggle like **** without more attackers. Hopefully more players will help with both the creativity/clinical problem and the new formation. I'm sure we will make signings but will be borderline suicide if we didn't.
8- Hate to end on a negative but think we will struggle against Sunderland next week. Will be a bit of role reversal to tonight and Moyes knows how to set up his teams away from home.
Again, !pologies for the ridiculous long post but as I said I'm quite drunk and can't be arsed with replying back and forth right now. I've got my Son tomorrow so really need to go to sleep
If anyone wants to address specific point then please do and I will reply tomorrow.
One more thing...
Up the ****ing Saints!!
Don't think your doctor would like me but I approve of your drinking!
Indeed, we are two games in; thus, declarative conclusions of any sort are suspect. However, that won't and shouldn't stop anyone from picking out things they like or dislike. You think that the team will be extremely easy on the eye, based on what you have seen. I don't; unless we change the personnel or shape significantly, I see a lot of decent passing in midfield coming to naught. And the first two matches have demonstrated that we lose shape defensively with troubling frequency, leading to the fullbacks going 1v2, or players getting at our back four with disturbing ease. That very well might change. That doesn't mean that those things aren't happening.
Following the BBC report of the match and then listening to Merrington, who I always find extremely negative, it seems that we played some nice football but were toothless up front. This mirrors the two home performances I have seen this season where we pass the ball around well yet never seem to offer any threat to goal. A lot has been made of Puel's diamond formation and the observations that I have read and heard are suggestive that the players appear not to understand what is required and that it is generally ineffectual.
Sunderland are there for the taking next week. I think Puel needs to re-think tactics. Anything less than three points will not be acceptable . Puel seems like a logical fit for Saints but I was concerned at his appointment having never heard of him before and being aware that his background is with French teams who would probably be good Championship sides in England. I appreciate that Koeman wasn't so impressive to begin with but some shrewd purchases transformed his team. We need to change the system and need a replacement for Pelle. This seems obvious. Whether Puel realises this will, I believe, determine his future at the club. Whilst there is no disgrace to lose 2-0 at Old Trafford, Puel needs to learn the lesson. If we persist with the diamond , don't utilise the flanks and fail to do something about the lack of goals, I don't think Puel will be around by November. As a Francophile, I would love to see Puel succeed but I have not seen or heard anything from him to date that suggest gives me confidence. Seduced by his success at small clubs like Lille and Nice, I wonder if Saints were aware of his inability at Lyon, a club whose aspirations and development of young talent is surely the better model for Southampton?
Sunderland are there for the taking next week. I think Puel needs to re-think tactics. Anything less than three points will not be acceptable . Puel seems like a logical fit for Saints but I was concerned at his appointment having never heard of him before and being aware that his background is with French teams who would probably be good Championship sides in England. I appreciate that Koeman wasn't so impressive to begin with but some shrewd purchases transformed his team. We need to change the system and need a replacement for Pelle. This seems obvious. Whether Puel realises this will, I believe, determine his future at the club. Whilst there is no disgrace to lose 2-0 at Old Trafford, Puel needs to learn the lesson. If we persist with the diamond , don't utilise the flanks and fail to do something about the lack of goals, I don't think Puel will be around by November. As a Francophile, I would love to see Puel succeed but I have not seen or heard anything from him to date that suggest gives me confidence. Seduced by his success at small clubs like Lille and Nice, I wonder if Saints were aware of his inability at Lyon, a club whose aspirations and development of young talent is surely the better model for Southampton?
Not for the first time, I get the impression you are watching a completely different sport than me. Early last season our full backs appeared exposed and out of their depth top a far greater extent this time last season than they have so far this. Targett looked pretty solid for the most part last night.
I had two criticisms of Koeman, of who I was nonetheless an admirer;
1) He was reluctant to give youngsters a chance.
2) while I respected his pragmatism, I was never happy with the amount of possession we surrendered last season.
Under Puel I am optimistic that we will improve on both those areas.
As for retaining possession, it's a fairly simple equation; if you have the ball, your opponent can't score. And the longer you retain it, the more likely you are to pull even the most organised defenses out of position.
Right... I haven't read all the comments since my last post and I just want to post a few of my thoughts. I'm pretty drunk so I apologise in advance if I make little sense or if the order is ****ed up...
1- I thought we played pretty well, much better than I was expecting and it has made me feel less 'concerned' about the season as a whole. At times I think we looked very similar as we did under Koeman - who despite what some say was a brilliant manager for us, arguably the best in a generation.
2- I'm still unsure about the diamond, though I think calls for it to be dropped are premature. It's still early days and it's clear the team are still getting used to it. I've seen a few people (not on this thread) saying it's never worked in the PL. I ask those people to look back at Liverpool in 13/14. Though one thing I will say is I hope we are prepared to switch up during the season. Versatility is key and as much as I don't want to bring Ron up again I think this is something which made us so strong last couple of years.
3- There's no shame in losing to United. I know we won our last 2 games up there but they're quite clearly a different animal now, and as I mentioned before the game they seem to have some momentum which they haven't had since Fergie retired. Taking everything into account they are my favourites to win the league.
4- Thought Fonte had a good game, doesn't seem to be too distracted by speculation though I think it's imperative we keep him.
5- Think Targett was pretty decent too, yes he lacks pace but i can think of a few times he was beaten yet got back to make a block/tackle. Clearly Bertrand is a step above but reckon we'd struggle to find a better back up. Plus as he's an academy player (which is something we pride ourselves on and makes us unique as a club), he should be getting more suuport from some fans than what he's currently getting imo.
5- Yes we can say despite all our good play we didn't create a lot but as I can remember this has been a problem for a long time so nothing new. Again think it's also worth noting the opposition & the manager. Would be suprised if they didn't win at least 14/19 of their home games.
6- Hojberg looks class, thought he struggled with the pace of the game for the first ten mins or so but grew into the game and you can see what a wonderful footballer he is. Will only get better as season goes on.
7- I'm still concerned about the DM position. Though Clasie done well (bar the pen) when he came on I think we are very light there. I personally think some underrate how good Vic is/was (and did during his time here too!) I also feel we lack a bit of height which is pretty important in PL.
7- Regarding points 1, 2 & 5. I think a lot of that only applies once we sign a few players. I've said before that we will struggle like **** without more attackers. Hopefully more players will help with both the creativity/clinical problem and the new formation. I'm sure we will make signings but will be borderline suicide if we didn't.
8- Hate to end on a negative but think we will struggle against Sunderland next week. Will be a bit of role reversal to tonight and Moyes knows how to set up his teams away from home.
Again, !pologies for the ridiculous long post but as I said I'm quite drunk and can't be arsed with replying back and forth right now. I've got my Son tomorrow so really need to go to sleep
If anyone wants to address specific point then please do and I will reply tomorrow.
One more thing...
Up the ****ing Saints!!
You must be drunk to think Koeman is better than Poch
Yeah, Puel needs to be flexible in his tactics. We can't just use the diamond. Still unsure he's the right man for the job.
Spend a minute or two to read two or three pages of this and remember those halcyon days of August 2015 when our players were magnificent and we had a manager who actually knew what he was doing:
http://www.not606.com/threads/southampton-vs-everton-15-08-2015-12-45-pm.308192/page-22
Vin
http://www.not606.com/threads/southampton-vs-everton-15-08-2015-12-45-pm.308192/page-22
Vin
I'd be unsure if Bill Paisley, Sir Alex Ferguson or Poch were the right man for the job after two games Tom. C'mon!
I'm not saying that the fullbacks are out of their depth. I'm saying that they're getting very little support, and that their task is made far more difficult because they are also being asked to provide most of the width in attack.
I had the same criticism of Koeman regarding the youngsters, as a matter of fact. I was told then that I was being a moaner and the kids weren't good enough.
Regarding possession, what ultimately matters is what you do with it. "If you have the ball, your opponent can't score" is incredibly reductive; we're coming off a season where the winner of the title had one of the worst possession rates in the league, because they specialized in creating chances in situations where much of the opposing team was up the pitch. They kept their opponents in front of them on one end, and got behind them on the other. Conversely, Swansea had excellent possession numbers while being utterly insipid in attack and surrendering their fair share on the other end. If we cannot do one or either effectively, we will not be very good, no matter what our possession stats.
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I think that's very harsh Ian, and I'd suggest you need to have seen the game rather than listened on the radio to make some of these suppositions.
I didn't say he wasn't the right man. I think it's fair to be unsure about him. He just seems to love the diamond and there's nothing wrong with that but I'd like to see some flexibility when it doesn't work.
I know what you're saying, but questioning Puel at this stage is mighty unfair tbh.
This is obvious and it is clearly the one thing that we do well under Puel. However, this takes the debate in to a really interesting place. Possession stats were amongst the first thing collated when the influence of Moneyball started to manifest itself in football but , as I understand things, there was a major re-think several years ago when it was realised that football tacticians were often compiling the incorrect data. I am not sure that this applies 100% to the game at squad level, but I know that stats for such things as completed passes and interceptions were reassessed so that they were applied to how much a player contributed to a team performance. In simple terms, completed passes in the oppositions half are the ones that are important. Possession in your own half helps to a degree in that it denies the opposition the ball but is won't lead to goals. The possession football under Puel would make interesting reading. How many of the completed passes lead to attempts on goal? What percentage of them are completed in our own half or with the majority of the opposition all behind the ball? Watching the Saints matches so far, the possession is not manifesting itself in attempts on goal.
I concede that Koeman was not an immediate success and everyone was concerned when Poch turned up at St Mary's. It is fair enough for fans to be concerned by something new. The problem with Puel is that whilst he could be applauded for having his own systems, the one we had employed for the last three - four seasons did not need changing! Whilst the quality of football is certainly better under Puel, I am fearful that is may prove to be as intransigent as Branfoot . If something is working, there is no need to break a successful system.
To be fair, this is consistent. Didn't Tom suggest a suitable sacking date for Puel some time ago?
Vin
It matters what you do with the ball, of course. It also matters what you do without it; under Koeman the emphasis was on getting into defensive position and retaining shape when we lost the ball; I am not sure we were ever that good at it tbh (although our finishing position suggests perhaps we were better than it sometimes looked). We certainly weren't Juventus, even with Forster playing the role of Buffon and VVD playing Chiellini.
Under Poch, the emphasis was always on winning the ball back as soon as we gave it away, preferably in the opponents half; I'm not sure we were ever that good at that either.
From what (very little of course) we have seen so far under Puel, it looks like the emphasis is back on possession, and I'm happy with that. As for our defensive shape, I don't think we were ever overwhelmed last night; we were undone by United's undoubted class in attack, rather than by our own defensive weaknesses.
Quite brilliant to bring that back. And depressing. I wonder will we ever get to start another Premier season without bemoaning the loss of key players and starting from scratch : )
Maybe we'll learn to love it and it will be the highlight of the year!