So taking one match this season to relate to one match last season and declaring that we're likely to be more aesthetically pleasing is a much more meaningful comparison?
Than yours, yes. We are two games in, so perhaps it's too early to make any comparisons, or draw any meaningful conclusions. Doesn't seem to have stopped anyone though, yourself included.
Indeed, we are two games in; thus, declarative conclusions of any sort are suspect. However, that won't and shouldn't stop anyone from picking out things they like or dislike. You think that the team will be extremely easy on the eye, based on what you have seen. I don't; unless we change the personnel or shape significantly, I see a lot of decent passing in midfield coming to naught. And the first two matches have demonstrated that we lose shape defensively with troubling frequency, leading to the fullbacks going 1v2, or players getting at our back four with disturbing ease. That very well might change. That doesn't mean that those things aren't happening.
Following the BBC report of the match and then listening to Merrington, who I always find extremely negative, it seems that we played some nice football but were toothless up front. This mirrors the two home performances I have seen this season where we pass the ball around well yet never seem to offer any threat to goal. A lot has been made of Puel's diamond formation and the observations that I have read and heard are suggestive that the players appear not to understand what is required and that it is generally ineffectual. Sunderland are there for the taking next week. I think Puel needs to re-think tactics. Anything less than three points will not be acceptable . Puel seems like a logical fit for Saints but I was concerned at his appointment having never heard of him before and being aware that his background is with French teams who would probably be good Championship sides in England. I appreciate that Koeman wasn't so impressive to begin with but some shrewd purchases transformed his team. We need to change the system and need a replacement for Pelle. This seems obvious. Whether Puel realises this will, I believe, determine his future at the club. Whilst there is no disgrace to lose 2-0 at Old Trafford, Puel needs to learn the lesson. If we persist with the diamond , don't utilise the flanks and fail to do something about the lack of goals, I don't think Puel will be around by November. As a Francophile, I would love to see Puel succeed but I have not seen or heard anything from him to date that suggest gives me confidence. Seduced by his success at small clubs like Lille and Nice, I wonder if Saints were aware of his inability at Lyon, a club whose aspirations and development of young talent is surely the better model for Southampton?
Not for the first time, I get the impression you are watching a completely different sport than me. Early last season our full backs appeared exposed and out of their depth top a far greater extent this time last season than they have so far this. Targett looked pretty solid for the most part last night. I had two criticisms of Koeman, of who I was nonetheless an admirer; 1) He was reluctant to give youngsters a chance. 2) while I respected his pragmatism, I was never happy with the amount of possession we surrendered last season. Under Puel I am optimistic that we will improve on both those areas. As for retaining possession, it's a fairly simple equation; if you have the ball, your opponent can't score. And the longer you retain it, the more likely you are to pull even the most organised defenses out of position.
Yeah, Puel needs to be flexible in his tactics. We can't just use the diamond. Still unsure he's the right man for the job.
Spend a minute or two to read two or three pages of this and remember those halcyon days of August 2015 when our players were magnificent and we had a manager who actually knew what he was doing: http://www.not606.com/threads/southampton-vs-everton-15-08-2015-12-45-pm.308192/page-22 Vin
I'd be unsure if Bill Paisley, Sir Alex Ferguson or Poch were the right man for the job after two games Tom. C'mon!
I'm not saying that the fullbacks are out of their depth. I'm saying that they're getting very little support, and that their task is made far more difficult because they are also being asked to provide most of the width in attack. I had the same criticism of Koeman regarding the youngsters, as a matter of fact. I was told then that I was being a moaner and the kids weren't good enough. Regarding possession, what ultimately matters is what you do with it. "If you have the ball, your opponent can't score" is incredibly reductive; we're coming off a season where the winner of the title had one of the worst possession rates in the league, because they specialized in creating chances in situations where much of the opposing team was up the pitch. They kept their opponents in front of them on one end, and got behind them on the other. Conversely, Swansea had excellent possession numbers while being utterly insipid in attack and surrendering their fair share on the other end. If we cannot do one or either effectively, we will not be very good, no matter what our possession stats.
I think that's very harsh Ian, and I'd suggest you need to have seen the game rather than listened on the radio to make some of these suppositions.
I didn't say he wasn't the right man. I think it's fair to be unsure about him. He just seems to love the diamond and there's nothing wrong with that but I'd like to see some flexibility when it doesn't work.
This is obvious and it is clearly the one thing that we do well under Puel. However, this takes the debate in to a really interesting place. Possession stats were amongst the first thing collated when the influence of Moneyball started to manifest itself in football but , as I understand things, there was a major re-think several years ago when it was realised that football tacticians were often compiling the incorrect data. I am not sure that this applies 100% to the game at squad level, but I know that stats for such things as completed passes and interceptions were reassessed so that they were applied to how much a player contributed to a team performance. In simple terms, completed passes in the oppositions half are the ones that are important. Possession in your own half helps to a degree in that it denies the opposition the ball but is won't lead to goals. The possession football under Puel would make interesting reading. How many of the completed passes lead to attempts on goal? What percentage of them are completed in our own half or with the majority of the opposition all behind the ball? Watching the Saints matches so far, the possession is not manifesting itself in attempts on goal. I concede that Koeman was not an immediate success and everyone was concerned when Poch turned up at St Mary's. It is fair enough for fans to be concerned by something new. The problem with Puel is that whilst he could be applauded for having his own systems, the one we had employed for the last three - four seasons did not need changing! Whilst the quality of football is certainly better under Puel, I am fearful that is may prove to be as intransigent as Branfoot . If something is working, there is no need to break a successful system.
To be fair, this is consistent. Didn't Tom suggest a suitable sacking date for Puel some time ago? Vin
It matters what you do with the ball, of course. It also matters what you do without it; under Koeman the emphasis was on getting into defensive position and retaining shape when we lost the ball; I am not sure we were ever that good at it tbh (although our finishing position suggests perhaps we were better than it sometimes looked). We certainly weren't Juventus, even with Forster playing the role of Buffon and VVD playing Chiellini. Under Poch, the emphasis was always on winning the ball back as soon as we gave it away, preferably in the opponents half; I'm not sure we were ever that good at that either. From what (very little of course) we have seen so far under Puel, it looks like the emphasis is back on possession, and I'm happy with that. As for our defensive shape, I don't think we were ever overwhelmed last night; we were undone by United's undoubted class in attack, rather than by our own defensive weaknesses.
Quite brilliant to bring that back. And depressing. I wonder will we ever get to start another Premier season without bemoaning the loss of key players and starting from scratch : ) Maybe we'll learn to love it and it will be the highlight of the year!
