Off Topic European Debate Thread

[wizered]

We've just had the referendum result, 3 days ago, we've informed Brussels of the result, we've laid our plans of procedure with regard to timing, surely we are allowed time to put together a first class quality, hard nosed team from across all sides of experience and points of view to negotiate any future deal.

This is the whole point of the referendum, we don't dance to the tune of the faceless, unelected bureaucrats of Brussels, we need time to prepare and the control is in our hands, article 50 gives us that right, we are doing nothing wrong making sure we are prepared for the negotiations.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

We've just had the referendum result, 3 days ago, we've informed Brussels of the result, we've laid our plans of procedure with regard to timing, surely we are allowed time to put together a first class quality, hard nosed team from across all sides of experience and points of view to negotiate any future deal.

This is the whole point of the referendum, we don't dance to the tune of the faceless, unelected bureaucrats of Brussels, we need time to prepare and the control is in our hands, article 50 gives us that right, we are doing nothing wrong making sure we are prepared for the negotiations.

It was a pretty binary vote Wiz, there were only 2 possible results. From the EU's perspective, it would not be unreasonable for them to expect us to have, at the bare minimum, have at least done some groundwork in preparation for an out vote. Like for instance, to have our crack, hardnosed negotiating team identified and on standby...

We have been caught with our trousers not just down, but halfway off. There was no preparation at all for an out vote so there is no plan, none whatsoever and yet the EU have to wait for us to get our act together...?

It is nothing to do with jumping to anyone's tune and I am pretty sure I know what you would be saying about the EU if it was the other way round...

 

[Redprintt]

'Having voted to say we don't like your club any more we're off, we should trigger article 50 now and not when it suits us to do so. THIS is the arrogance...'

Totally disagree, nothing to do with arrogance.
We voted out and are playing by EU rules.

'We have had City players say that they don't want to sign a new contract/play for us anymore. What is the general approach to this across these boards...? Pretty universally, it is that if the player doesn't want to play for us any more, then **** him out of the club immediately so, why is it different when the boot is on the other foot....?'

You live in a parallel universe.
Players/agents and our Board decide - end of.
What folk on here say about City players is absolutely irrelevant.
Like it's irrelevant what you or I think about the Referendum result.
A democratic vote has happened, and maybe a surprise but we move on and play by the rules - of Article 50.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

It was a pretty binary vote Wiz, there were only 2 possible results. From the EU's perspective, it would not be unreasonable for them to expect us to have, at the bare minimum, have at least done some groundwork in preparation for an out vote. Like for instance, to have our crack, hardnosed negotiating team identified and on standby...

We have been caught with our trousers not just down, but halfway off. There was no preparation at all for an out vote so there is no plan, none whatsoever and yet the EU have to wait for us to get our act together...?

It is nothing to do with jumping to anyone's tune and I am pretty sure I know what you would be saying about the EU if it was the other way round...

What can you expect from those on the leave side when none of them run the country? They cant start the article 50 process. Thats the role of the PM. The same PM who was leading the remain group. Its your leader who didnt prepare for leave to win. Its your leader who said in the TV debates leading up to the referendum who said if leave wins, he will still remain as PM and carry out the publics mandate as it stated in his manifesto that was voted for in the general election. It is your leader who instead of keeping to his word about this, he has decided to quit (so he lied to us all yet again and broke another thing from his manifesto). The reason why there will be such a delay in starting article 50 is down to your leader and not down to the leave side.

If he hadnt given up, I would have expected the leave leaders working with Cameron and setting everything up ready for article 50 to start. Instead, the leave leaders got to wait to see who the new PM will be then run through everything with him/her and they may not be happy with some of the detail which will cause more delays (if it aint a leave person that is).

Cameron proved he is weak. But after quitting, I will give credit where it is due, he could have started article 50 and then quit meaning the 2 year period will start and we would also be without a leader. That would have been a disaster. At least he has shown for once a bit of sense by not starting article 50 and leaving it to the next leader who hopefully will be a stronger leader than him.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

On the issue of terminology, CJS correctly picked me up on the credit rating which he rightly says is currently unaltered. My point however was that as I suspect CJS already knows, that the downgrade to a "negative" outlook is enough to affect the terms on which we can borrow money, do you concede this point CJS..?

First of all, I am sorry for the late reply. I thought this thread was shut. I didnt get chance to reply to your post yesterday. I post some comments while at my in laws yesterday but my battery got very low on my phone so I couldnt reply then but was going to reply to you when I got home last night. But the thread was then closed so I couldnt.

For the record, I have no reason to concede anything. My point was you were not correct when you said "it actually has happened". I pointed out this fact that it hadnt actually. You went off trying to justify yourself saying there will still be some uncertainty claiming that was your point, which you still are trying to do. Unfortunately you didnt originally say that but instead you said it has actually happened as if it was a fact. I just pointed out you were wrong. Thank you for finally admitting that you were wrong. Ypu have made the point about the uncertainty but my 1 and only point was you miss-leading, so have nothing to concede

Claiming negative things to have actually have happened as if it was a fact is scaremongering. Its comments like that during all the TV debates leading up to the referendum that has really made all the debates a farce and has given politics are far worse name than they already had.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

First of all, I am sorry for the late reply. I thought this thread was shut. I didnt get chance to reply to your post yesterday. I post some comments while at my in laws yesterday but my battery got very low on my phone so I couldnt reply then but was going to reply to you when I got home last night. But the thread was then closed so I couldnt.

For the record, I have no reason to concede anything. My point was you were not correct when you said "it actually has happened". I pointed out this fact that it hadnt actually. You went off trying to justify yourself saying there will still be some uncertainty claiming that was your point, which you still are trying to do. Unfortunately you didnt originally say that but instead you said it has actually happened as if it was a fact. I just pointed out you were wrong. Thank you for finally admitting that you were wrong. Ypu have made the point about the uncertainty but my 1 and only point was you miss-leading, so have nothing to concede

Claiming negative things to have actually have happened as if it was a fact is scaremongering. Its comments like that during all the TV debates leading up to the referendum that has really made all the debates a farce and has given politics are far worse name than they already had.

The point (which you have now dodged) was that a downgrade to a negative outlook, has a material impact on the rate of interest at which the United Kingdom can borrow money so in fact, "it", being a negative impact on your mortgage costs, is actually in progress.

I will be more careful with my semantics in future.

I hear much commentary about interest rates potentially going down, if this happens, it will be because of the BOE going down the QE route of creating more money out of thin air (again) which doesn't benefit us in the long run if the economy doesn't recover enough to enable the BOE to sell the bonds...

Huge, no, MASSIVE gamble in view of the vote

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

'Having voted to say we don't like your club any more we're off, we should trigger article 50 now and not when it suits us to do so. THIS is the arrogance...'

Totally disagree, nothing to do with arrogance.
We voted out and are playing by EU rules.

'We have had City players say that they don't want to sign a new contract/play for us anymore. What is the general approach to this across these boards...? Pretty universally, it is that if the player doesn't want to play for us any more, then **** him out of the club immediately so, why is it different when the boot is on the other foot....?'

You live in a parallel universe.
Players/agents and our Board decide - end of.
What folk on here say about City players is absolutely irrelevant.
Like it's irrelevant what you or I think about the Referendum result.
A democratic vote has happened, and maybe a surprise but we move on and play by the rules - of Article 50.

Of course it is arrogance.

We want out of the lousy stinking union which we detest but no actually, we will loiter in the club that we want no part of, until WE are ready to BEGIN to leave.

Really, take a step back and have a good look at your statement. Better still, try it in real life and tell the bouncer at your local club on a Saturday night that his club is **** and you don't want to be in it but he'll have to wait an hour until YOU are ready to leave and see how many seconds it is before you are flying out the door.

Your statement is typical of the attitude of the whole Leave campaign, we are in charge, even when it's not our house anymore.

 

[BCFCRob]

I really don't see it as arrogance. Okay, you would have a point if it's 7 years down the line and we still haven't left. But it's a country leaving the fecking EU, it will not happen overnight. The EU have said we need to make our exit hasty and I'm sure we will. But unfortunately, hasty in this instance could mean Article 50 not being invoked for another year.

 

[banksyisourhero]

It takes 2 years to leave anyway.. another 6 months is not going to make any difference.

In fact it will probably give businesses adjustment time.

 

[Redprintt]

Really, take a step back and have a good look at your statement - you are totally deluded.

Your statement is typical of the attitude of the whole Remain campaign, thanks to a democratic vote we are now in charge of our own destiny on our terms.
Not Brussels.

Likening to some bouncer on a Saturday night is puerile in the extreme and proves a complete lack of understanding.
I will give you the red lettering was very impressive.

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

Really, take a step back and have a good look at your statement - you are totally deluded.

Your statement is typical of the attitude of the whole Remain campaign, thanks to a democratic vote we are now in charge of our own destiny on our terms.
Not Brussels.

Likening to some bouncer on a Saturday night is puerile in the extreme and proves a complete lack of understanding.
I will give you the red lettering was very impressive.

"A complete lack of understanding" - I was trying to explain the complete hypocracy of telling me that we will decide when we leave a club that we don't want to be part of (Groucho Marx anyone)

Can you point out to me, anywhere on this thread, or anywhere else that I have said that we should have another referendum or similar.

To save you looking, I will tell you that you won't find it because it is not there. I have conceded that I accept democracy in action and will have to get on with it. This however doesn't stop me disproving the myth that Remain were scaremongering by pointing out when the things that were "mongered", actually happen.

As I type, the FTSE 100 is down nearly 3% and I don't really want to look at the FTSE 250

Even Banksy wasn't his usual chopsy self in reply to that one because I suspect he understood the point....

EDIT:- having just looked at the FTSE 250 (mainly UK businesses) it is down 7%, that's SEVEN (more red) -so much for the myth about everything being alright on Friday...

 

[Redprintt]

Can you point out to me, anywhere on this thread, or anywhere else I have said that you asked for another referendum.
To save you looking, I will tell you that you won't find it because it is not there.
I accept democracy in action and will have to get on with it.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

The point (which you have now dodged) was that a downgrade to a negative outlook, has a material impact on the rate of interest at which the United Kingdom can borrow money so in fact, "it", being a negative impact on your mortgage costs, is actually in progress.

I will be more careful with my semantics in future.

I hear much commentary about interest rates potentially going down, if this happens, it will be because of the BOE going down the QE route of creating more money out of thin air (again) which doesn't benefit us in the long run if the economy doesn't recover enough to enable the BOE to sell the bonds...

Huge, no, MASSIVE gamble in view of the vote

I havent dodged anything. You made a point. I proved it was wrong. You tried to convince me you were right by making side points. Sorry but I was only interested in your original point, not your side points

You said "it has actually happened".
I said "no it hasnt actually happened".
You said "yes it has" while making other points to justify your original point.
Im not interested in those other points, but only interested in your original point as you were just plain wrong. I wanted to stop the scaremongering.
You now admit you were wrong. Thank you.
You also want me to concede to your other points. Those other points were never in my arguement. I never said they were right or wrong as I didnt have an opinion on it as only wanted to discuss the original point of yours.

Hope you understand now.

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

As I type, the FTSE 100 is down nearly 3% and I don't really want to look at the FTSE 250

Even Banksy wasn't his usual chopsy self in reply to that one because I suspect he understood the point....

EDIT:- having just looked at the FTSE 250 (mainly UK businesses) it is down 7%, that's SEVEN (more red) -so much for the myth about everything being alright on Friday...

Only 3% for the 100 and only 7% for the 250. Thats pretty good. I expected a lot worse going by how the remain lot were predicting leading up to last Thursday

Also, todays 100 and 250 wouldnt be as bad as 3 and 7% if it wasnt for your remain leader and Chancellor of the Exchequer wasnt in hiding for 2 days over the weekend. Why couldnt Osborne make his statement on Friday or Saturday? Or even yesterday? Not minutes before the stock exchange opens today! Also Osbornes threat of the Brexit budget didnt help did it!

Im looking forward to your day 4 report. Though can you use different colours please, just to doing something different for us as I doubt you will change what you will be banging on about!

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

I havent dodged anything. You made a point. I proved it was wrong. You tried to convince me you were right by making side points. Sorry but I was only interested in your original point, not your side points

You said "it has actually happened".
I said "no it hasnt actually happened".
You said "yes it has" while making other points to justify your original point.
Im not interested in those other points, but only interested in your original point as you were just plain wrong. I wanted to stop the scaremongering.
You now admit you were wrong. Thank you.
You also want me to concede to your other points. Those other points were never in my arguement. I never said they were right or wrong as I didnt have an opinion on it as only wanted to discuss the original point of yours.

Hope you understand now.

Pedantry I see - anyway, yes it has, see under, there I go scaremongering again - oh wait, like I said it was only a matter of time and now not just one but both of the other 2 main agencies have CUT the rating with a downgrade on the outlook from the 3rd...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934

Fitch expects an abrupt slowdown in UK growth in the short term. But it also warned that medium term growth is likely to be weaker "due to less favourable terms for exports to the EU, lower immigration and a reduction in foreign direct investment".

S&P also warned that it expected the UK economic growth to be hit by the outcome of the vote. It said that there was a risk of "a constitutional crisis" if the referendum's outcome leads to a second referendum on Scottish independence from the UK.

"We take the view that the deep divisions both within the ruling Conservative Party and society as a whole over the European question may not heal quickly and may hamper government stability and complicate policymaking on economic and other matters," it said. S&P also warned uncertainty on key issues about the UK's exit from the EU would hurt investor confidence and put vital external investment "at risk".

In case you missed it, the 8th and 9th paragraphs cover it.

"A rating downgrade can affect how much it costs governments to borrow money in the international financial markets. In theory, a high credit rating means a lower interest rate (and vice versa). S&P said that the leave result would "weaken the predictability, stability, and effectiveness of policymaking in the UK".

One by one, the" scaremonger" predictions will come true and gradually, it will dawn on those in denial that this isn't a game and the warnings were actually for real...

p.s. £ down to its lowest for 30+ years...

 

[banksyisourhero]

Even Banksy wasn't his usual chopsy self in reply to that one because I suspect he understood the point.

Didn't even read it..

I'm fed up of listening to you.. embarrassing.. My 18 year old daughter doesn't squeal like you..

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

Didn't even read it..

I'm fed up of listening to you.. embarrassing.. My 18 year old daughter doesn't squeal like you..

Try reading this then - it is real, unlike the "nah that won't happen" bollocks that you constantly spout...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934

 

[banksyisourhero]

Dry your eyes..

 

[Premiershiporbust IV]

Dry your eyes..

Try opening yours, you might learn something...

 

[banksyisourhero]

Try opening yours, you might learn something...

I have.. Your a bad loser. (one of many!)