Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[astro]

Not sure on the truth of these claims, but if even half of them are correct it places a better view on the leave vote.

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10-eu-myths-about-withdrawl/

Easily debunked though. I haven't read them properly but myth 3 jumped out, using Japan, Switzerland and Norway as examples of not being part of trading blocs.

Well Japan actually manufactures boadloads of technology cars and semiconductors, Switzerland has loads of Nazi gold, and Norway sent us a message saying "don't look to us for a plan we're on our arse".

Unless we do a u-turn on the [HASHTAG]#panamapapers[/HASHTAG] and make it clear to everyone we're willing to be a haven for criminal banking then we're ****ed.

 

[Diego]

Easily debunked though. I haven't read them properly but myth 3 jumped out, using Japan, Switzerland and Norway as examples of not being part of trading blocs.

Well Japan actually manufactures boadloads of technology cars and semiconductors, Switzerland has loads of Nazi goal, and Norway sent us a message saying "don't look to us for a plan we're on our arse".

Unless we do a u-turn on the [HASHTAG]#panamapapers[/HASHTAG] and make it clear to everyone we're willing to be a haven for criminal banking then we're ****ed.

So 1 out of 10?
I stick to my assertion that if half of them are true then things are not as bad as people are trying to paint.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

1)a)SNP do not have a majority in the Scottish Parliament and as such any attempt to push for another referendum will be blocked by the other SMPs who do not want to leave the union.
b) Scottish elections happened in May so it's another five years before the SNP can attempt to gain a majority by which point we could have a different government, we could have deals in place with the EU etc...
2) Even if by some miracle they manage to get the legislation through the Scottish Parliament, they then need to get a Tory government who have already given them a recent referendum (where they voted to stay) and who have just had a referendum backfire on them, to approve the result of said Scottish referendum. There is no chance the Tory leadership will allow themselves to be known as the party who pulled out of the EU and then allowed Scotland to leave the UK
3) a) if they manage to achieve the above unlikely scenarios they then need to actually get a vote of independance in the referendum. A million more people voted in the last Scottish referendum compared to this EU referendum so clearly it is more important to the Scottish people to be part of our union than the European one.
b) the last Scottish referendum failed to put forward an economic plan that the Scottish people had confidence in and since then oil prices have dropped to below half the 2014 price and are more volatile, quite simply put the economics of a Scottish exit don't work.

It isn't going to happen no matter how much the SNP sabre rattle.

We are not about to see the breakdown of the U.K., it's complete rubbish.

I'll say this again, as you don't seem clear on it - IF the Scottish parliament vote for a referendum and Westminster deny it there will be a constitutional crisis. In theory they would have grounds to call UDI. Be realistic, when they get it past the Scottish parliament it's all over - unless you seriously think we're going to send tanks into Edinburgh and Glasgow and the Royal navy up the Clyde.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Easily debunked though. I haven't read them properly but myth 3 jumped out, using Japan, Switzerland and Norway as examples of not being part of trading blocs.

Well Japan actually manufactures boadloads of technology cars and semiconductors, Switzerland has loads of Nazi goal, and Norway sent us a message saying "don't look to us for a plan we're on our arse".

Unless we do a u-turn on the [HASHTAG]#panamapapers[/HASHTAG] and make it clear to everyone we're willing to be a haven for criminal banking then we're ****ed.

Plus Norway has nearly as much oil per head of population as Qatar.

 

[Diego]

I'll say this again, as you don't seem clear on it - IF the Scottish parliament vote for a referendum and Westminster deny it there will be a constitutional crisis. In theory they would have grounds to call UDI. Be realistic, when they get it past the Scottish parliament it's all over - unless you seriously think we're going to send tanks into Edinburgh and Glasgow and the Royal navy up the Clyde.

Did you miss his first point?

 

[Diego]

Plus Norway has nearly as much oil per head of population as Qatar.

Yep, massive player in the oil market, somewhere around 15th I think.

 

[astro]

So 1 out of 10?
I stick to my assertion that if half of them are true then things are not as bad as people are trying to paint.

1/1 that I bothered with, the rest are all just things no one has ever even said (like myth 10) or pathetic straw men such as myth 9 "the UK will lose all global influence - no we will still have a little bit left so technically not all will be lost so we win"

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Yep, massive player in the oil market, somewhere around 15th I think.

Not the point - they have a relatively small population compared to the oil they produce.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

Did you miss his first point?

No - that's why I put IF in big capital letters. I'm sure Sturgeon wants to bide her time and see just what a shambles the two years of extricating ourselves from the EU will cause. Oh - and she could also, in theory, call a new election for the Scottish parliament to see if she could get her majority that way. It's not inconceivable Scottish labour would not oppose them - they'd still exist in Scotland post independence, whereas they've seen what happens to them if they are seen to block it and side with the Tories.

Early days yet, but I predict this - that 'once in a generation' belief about the Scottish referendum only two years ago won't last five years if Brexit goes badly for the Scots, and I truly believe the EU will do everything to ensure that Britain (or should I say England and Wales) pays a ****ing big going away tax, and taking on Scotland, even with it's less valuable oil reserves, isn't as bad as propping up Greece and Portugal.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

That's not necessarily the case with the Tories. Michael Hesseltine seemed the natural successor to Thatcher but Tories don't seem to like voting for the guy who twisted the knife. I bet there are many Tories who may have got into bed with Johnson for a shared common purpose against the EU, but in all other ways may have a serious dislike for him, particularly the "establishment". Gove is just a sniveling runt who was bullied too much in the toilets of the public school he attended.

Best case scenario... DAVID DAVIES - A "Leave" campaigner and a proper politician with some modicom of common decency! Ideal for the Tories to get behind collectively and tbh someone who will do a damn sight better job of getting the economy and our exit from the EU properly on track.

As long as it's not Andrea Loathsome. ****ing hell - did some PR/image consultant tell her to smile to hide her hang dog expression? She looks like a superannuated ballroom dancer, or a veteran, retired ice skater having one last twirl.

 

[Page_Moss_Kopite]

So, reasons given from people that voted "leave" include, immigration, financial unfairness from the tory government for those on low wages or unemployed during austerity, revenge for job losses, revenge for house losses, older people wanting the country like it was before we joined the EEC, the North/South divide, and many more.
Most have no bearing on what the actual referendum was for and most could have been addressed prior to the vote if the arrogant Tories had actually studied the referendum voters gripes and concerns around the country before granting the referendum and working for and with the electorate until the day of the vote instead of using "scare tactics" alone to get the victory and taking it for granted "remain" would win.

I just think more could have been done by "remain" in the build up, not one person from either campaign came to my house or our area, our MP's name was in the remain column in the media but he couldn't be bothered knocking on his constituents doors to bolster support and the same probably applies to many other areas.

Fair enough they(along with others from different political parties and businesses)told of the dangers of leaving the EU but never made sure the UK electorate had only the EU vote in mind when voting, and instead of aiming all of the blame at the ordinary voters for us now being out of the EU the many politicians, business people and the lazy ****ers that were fit and able enough but couldn't be arsed going to their polling station on the day deserve their kick up the backside also.

There are big calls for another EU referendum based on the turnout on Thursday and the margin of victory for the out campaign, its also been said to justify the online petition that Farage had said in the week before the vote that unless the remain vote won by a huge majority the out campaign would call for a second referendum.
A 2nd referendum would only divide the country even more than it is now and any future referendum's on other issues would be laughed at because it would be assumed that the losers would cry foul and demand repeat referendums until they eventually won.
We are where we are and we've got to try and make the best of it and try to be patient, yep its a long hard road to travel and there will no doubt be big losers amongst those less able to afford it, but there's no other alternative, is there?

 

[carlthejackal]

...

We are where we are and we've got to try and make the best of it and try to be patient, yep its a long hard road to travel and there will no doubt be big losers amongst those less able to afford it, but there's no other alternative, is there?

And this is why there is such massive despair this morning amongst many people. Much more than the usual depression after an election loss.

The young people I come across feel completely bereft. This is not too strong a word. This feels like their future has been taken away by a bunch of callous ignorant uncaring old gits who had selfishly decided to leave them with a ****ed up future. Gone are their dreams of roaming round Europe, working freely as they wish in Paris or meeting new people and settling in Hamburg.

This feels permanent to them and their anger is fully justified.

I am angry with incompetent Corbyn but also with arrogant Cameron who thought that he was so popular and charismatic that he will carry the day when in fact the downtrodden and forgotten were only waiting for this opportunity to kick him in the balls no matter what the issue had been. The ruling elite are the least trusted people and Cameron should have recognised that.

I just cannot imagine that if the voters had indeed been told the facts by people they trusted they would voted the way they did.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

So, reasons given from people that voted "leave" include, immigration, financial unfairness from the tory government for those on low wages or unemployed during austerity, revenge for job losses, revenge for house losses, older people wanting the country like it was before we joined the EEC, the North/South divide, and many more.
Most have no bearing on what the actual referendum was for and most could have been addressed prior to the vote if the arrogant Tories had actually studied the referendum voters gripes and concerns around the country before granting the referendum and working for and with the electorate until the day of the vote instead of using "scare tactics" alone to get the victory and taking it for granted "remain" would win.

I just think more could have been done by "remain" in the build up, not one person from either campaign came to my house or our area, our MP's name was in the remain column in the media but he couldn't be bothered knocking on his constituents doors to bolster support and the same probably applies to many other areas.

Fair enough they(along with others from different political parties and businesses)told of the dangers of leaving the EU but never made sure the UK electorate had only the EU vote in mind when voting, and instead of aiming all of the blame at the ordinary voters for us now being out of the EU the many politicians, business people and the lazy ****ers that were fit and able enough but couldn't be arsed going to their polling station on the day deserve their kick up the backside also.

There are big calls for another EU referendum based on the turnout on Thursday and the margin of victory for the out campaign, its also been said to justify the online petition that Farage had said in the week before the vote that unless the remain vote won by a huge majority the out campaign would call for a second referendum.
A 2nd referendum would only divide the country even more than it is now and any future referendum's on other issues would be laughed at because it would be assumed that the losers would cry foul and demand repeat referendums until they eventually won.
We are where we are and we've got to try and make the best of it and try to be patient, yep its a long hard road to travel and there will no doubt be big losers amongst those less able to afford it, but there's no other alternative, is there?

We should enforce the pledge to pay £350m a week EXTRA on the NHS, enforce zero immigration on the country for a decade and pay for it by stopping their ****ing benefits and reducing the state pension. Oh, and does anyone know how much a day this £250bn the BoE is spending on propping up the pound is going to cost in interest payments per week? Would it be @ £350m , thereabouts?

And has anyone read Oborne's steam of **** in the Fail yesterday? Suffice to say, short of crowing worse than that semi-literate spastic Hopkins, who was thrown out the Army for being a mong, he actually berates Remain for... telling lies. On the day that they admitted the £350m was ****, and so was the immigration nonsense too.

Meh. Make them do it, and make those that asked for it pay for it. And I'll take my final salary pension early and **** off to Ireland. ****s.

 

[carlthejackal]

So 1 out of 10?
I stick to my assertion that if half of them are true then things are not as bad as people are trying to paint.

This is looking at it from your perspective. For many, especially the young who wanted to remain part of the eu community and very wary of multinational companies relocating (Morgan Stanley has apparently already decided to lay off or not recruit 500 new graduates). It is also this sense of bereavement, of losing something they hold dear and unlike a general election, will not be able to reverse the decision in 5 years. The EU declaring that this decision was final didn't help the mood.

Many resent the bigoted narrow minded old gits who resent seeing a new face speaking a new language on their High Street whereas they welcome it.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

There was no appetite for adopting the euro at the last referendum amongst voters and don't see why that would change now. And overall it's more important to Scotland to be part of the U.K. than the EU. At worst the situation will be that the UK government guarantees the funding Scotland currently gets from the EU to settle them down.

I'll tell you why... cos they see themselves circling a drain and frankly junker the clown is already agitating.

If you think euro skeptics are the only people in Europe who don't like the other side there's a massive flood of people looking at UK right now with knives out.

Car industry... forget it. Germany and France and Italy have a vested interest in making uk car exports to eu uncompetitive
They just do.... so do you really think the 3 remaining big players will let the uk car industry (Ford, Nissan, etc) hav3 it easy?

Aerospace? I can see this one being ok as there a need here

Food? UK farms up and down the uk will be badly hit. NI will be hugely hit and need subsidies to continue. There's a large market other will be only too delighted to supply here. Again low margins that duties can wipe out.

Scotland will see all this and the price of independance just shot up not down.

Scotland can break off uk but how long will it take? As such if it takes 5 years or something then what happens? UK is out and they want in desperately so.... junker and Merkel make them take euro.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

So 1 out of 10?
I stick to my assertion that if half of them are true then things are not as bad as people are trying to paint.

It's not a total financial collapse no....

But I hope you've a secure pension plan.

On the stuff about Swiss and Norway... you know they pay to have market access right? UK is arrogant to think it won't have to pay.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

For afc..

129 seats. The SNP have 63.

Your thought would require the greens labour tories and libs to all vote it down.

They only need 5 to vote independance

So.... sorry but your line about it never happening is nuts.

 

[Garlic Klopp]

The Tories have a history of using someone to oust an existing PM then voting a different person in instead of the "stalking horse". I think Boris might be in for a shock. David Davies may suddenly come into the running. It certainly won't be George Osborne

 

[Treble]

So, reasons given from people that voted "leave" include, immigration, financial unfairness from the tory government for those on low wages or unemployed during austerity, revenge for job losses, revenge for house losses, older people wanting the country like it was before we joined the EEC, the North/South divide, and many more.
Most have no bearing on what the actual referendum was for and most could have been addressed prior to the vote if the arrogant Tories had actually studied the referendum voters gripes and concerns around the country before granting the referendum and working for and with the electorate until the day of the vote instead of using "scare tactics" alone to get the victory and taking it for granted "remain" would win.

THIS is the big problem. We let the Brexit campaign dictate the agenda all the way. Why the **** did the Remain campaign start AFTER the result?

1) Why didn't anyone EVER pin down Farage, Johnson and Gove on whether "controlled" immigration meant reduced immigration? Could you imagine the effect on those voters who were under the misconception THIS is what they were voting for?

2) Why weren't the Remain campaign pin down Farage, Johnson and Gove on the accuracy of the lie that is £350m. AND more importantly, why didn't anyone pin them down on exactly how much will be going towards the NHS.

3) Why didn't anyone EVER point out that Farage is actually unelected, not a member of parliament and therefore could NOT promise a jelly bean after the result. He was politically impotent post-referendum.

4) And why didn't the Remain campaign set the agenda by reinforcing ALL the positive effects of the EU in this country, and for this country, and at least have the Outers on the back foot to have to follow the tone Remain were setting.

THAT VOID is why people ended up voting on the basis of the ridiculous reasons you've listed and they've openly admitted! What's so damning about this referendum is that the actual process of democracy was like that of a third world country.

 

[Garlic Klopp]

Brexit did not win the referendum, Remain lost it. Cameron and especially Corbyn were shown up as the political pygmies they really are. All spin and no substance. They thought that scaring the country with suggestions of what would happen if we left the EU would be enough. Some of the scaremongering bordered on the ridiculous, such as another world war, house prices would plummet, (always a good scare as we are so obsessed with house prices in this country), the NHS would be privatised,etc.

They should have emphasised the positives for being in the EU and shot holes in some of the bullshit the Brexit mob were spouting.