Off Topic The Politics Thread
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When you can't give a structured argument to support your cause then I suppose dismissive sarcasm is just as useful, it's easier to lie and ignore the facts then face up to them.
Not like for like.
50% of our exports ... maybe.
16% of their exports ... maybe. But remember that is an average of 16% of each of 27 other countries. That is why we have a deficit.
Like comparing 50% of a pint with 16% of a barrel.
Can they afford to drop us as a market place? Of course not.
They won't be dropping us as a market place, they won't be adding any tariffs on the cars they send us. Just the ones we sell them, it's up to premier IDS to decide whether to add the tariffs in return. The EU will enforce it, a single market without any conditions like EU payments and free movement means everyone will ask for it - that won't happen. It would mean the end of the EU.
Would you not concede that the leave campaign's general scaremongering on immigration and Farage's disgusting antics in particular could have played a part in this terrible murder, Goldie?
I was castigated on here for suggesting a link between the two, but I stand by what I posted and I'm not alone in my view. Here's an excellent piece from the spectator (recommended by Chaz)...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
...and James O'Brien on LBC....
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This horrible referendum process has made the country a nastier, less tolerant place and the Leave campaign has pandered to the basest instincts inherent in pretty much all of us.
But we're there any special rules stopping Europeans living in other European countries
I can't think of an instance where Vote Leave have acted irresponsibly on immigration - they have talked about numbers, and control. Farage has brought in scare tactics recently, presumably to counter the ridiculous scare stories on the economy from Osborne et al. Farage needs to step back behind the line.
Don't get me started on O'Brien, Strolls. He's so blindly in favour of increased immigration, he's almost "no borders". He will use any tool - even the tragic death of a young mother - to stifle debate on the subject.
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Now split that barrel into 27 pints, you and 27 people all stood with the pint and you spill 50% of your pint and they all spill 16% of theirs, the combined 27 of them would have spilled more in total but individually they would hardly notice the bit off the top, however you now only have half a pint!
The eu is the biggest economy in the world, they can afford to drop us far more then we can drop them, hence why they will hold all the cards in the event of any negotiation.
Funny that no one supporting leave can address any of the issues I mentioned regarding immigration and a trade deal!
Point missed or just ignored?
You can't disassociate Farage from the Leave campaign - he's your vote-winner.
O'Brien is not blindly in favour of increased immigration, he's passionately in favour of decreased racism and rabble-rousing, as am I.
It is, in my opinion, wholly legitimate to suggest that the murderer of Jo Cox may have been influenced by racist and xenophobic Leave propaganda.
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In general, pro-Remain points that have no easy answers for pro-Leave people just get ignored. Too inconvenient. No rational response is given other than having faith it will be all right in the end and that all those experts are wrong or made it up.
There are some real issues to resolve but voting "Leave" won't solve any of them. This referendum is not about the EU - if it ever was. Many "Leave" voters are just being duped into helping some politicians improve their career choices and some oligarchs improve the climate for them to make more money and have more political influence without that pesky EU stopping them.
Of course, no-one likes being told they're a chump on this issue, so the reaction is to dig in further and deny everything.
This could also apply equally to me and Remain, except I know what we might be leaving and don't know where we're going.
It all feels like "Let's jump off the cliff and see what happens. It might be alright".
Had some interesting chats with a variety of Europeans this week, some colleagues from my company but most senior doctors. None were totally happy with the EU, but equally none wanted their country to leave. Only one (a Frenchman! But also a lovely bloke) wanted the UK to leave, on the grounds that many/most of us never really wanted to be in. The Eastern Europeans (Czech, Slovak, Pole, Lativian) who were all of an age to remember what it was like before the end of Soviet domination, were incredulous about the arguments about sovereignty, they felt that the EU underwrites democracy in their countries, and that things could have got very nasty indeed had they not had rapid access to the EU (Belarus often cited). The Spanish blokes were similar, the EU played a massive role in their transition from Fascism. All were concerned by the refugee crisis (especially the French and Germans), but none by free movement within the EU. And all were proud of their countries (while being open about a variety of problems) and felt that they would continue to exist within the context of the EU.
Of course, it's all relative, if people here feel they are oppressed by the EU that's a genuine feeling, even though the scale of oppression might be very different to what others have experienced. And, obviously, as these are the views of successful, cosmopolitan, well educated professionals, all true 'experts' in their field, they can be discounted as they are obviously members of either the 'liberal elite' or the 'establishment' (take your pick).
One interesting thing on the Euro. The Czechs and Swedes are not members, but they are meant to be working towards joining. In fact they have no intention of joining and deliberately don't meet some of the criteria needed so the question never arises. And this is tacitly understood by all, no big thing is made of it. It's not an inevitable juggernaut.
I hope, and think, EU reform (which is desperately needed, especially around the role of the commission) will happen. And we will probably claim the credit as the catalyst if we leave. But I think, with the right attitude, we could play a leading role in driving it if we stay. But we won't, because our fundamental attitude, from both the Remain and Leave camps, is 'what's in it for us'. I believe this narrow focus on 'our best interests' is the key issue here, inability to accept that the collective European best interest is actually also the UK best interest, blinds us to what could be achieved and locks us into an adversarial relationship. So I am right back to where I started on this thread. Despite my personal view, we are temperamentally unsuited to cooperation, we just **** it up for the others. Leaving will have negative consequences economically for both the UK and the EU, but in the long run they are probably better off without us.
Of course, it's all relative, if people here feel they are oppressed by the EU that's a genuine feeling, even though the scale of oppression might be very different to what others have experienced. And, obviously, as these are the views of successful, cosmopolitan, well educated professionals, all true 'experts' in their field, they can be discounted as they are obviously members of either the 'liberal elite' or the 'establishment' (take your pick).
One interesting thing on the Euro. The Czechs and Swedes are not members, but they are meant to be working towards joining. In fact they have no intention of joining and deliberately don't meet some of the criteria needed so the question never arises. And this is tacitly understood by all, no big thing is made of it. It's not an inevitable juggernaut.
I hope, and think, EU reform (which is desperately needed, especially around the role of the commission) will happen. And we will probably claim the credit as the catalyst if we leave. But I think, with the right attitude, we could play a leading role in driving it if we stay. But we won't, because our fundamental attitude, from both the Remain and Leave camps, is 'what's in it for us'. I believe this narrow focus on 'our best interests' is the key issue here, inability to accept that the collective European best interest is actually also the UK best interest, blinds us to what could be achieved and locks us into an adversarial relationship. So I am right back to where I started on this thread. Despite my personal view, we are temperamentally unsuited to cooperation, we just **** it up for the others. Leaving will have negative consequences economically for both the UK and the EU, but in the long run they are probably better off without us.
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And jumping off the cliff would also be done against the background of a constitutional crisis at home. There is no 'manifesto' for Brexit.....no clear plan as to what will happen over the next 2 years. There would be over 1,000 separate treaties to be negotiated with the EU. (or rather they would negotiate amongst themselves because we would lose our voting rights immediately). In the absence of a manifesto our position on each individual treaty would need to be voted on in Westminster - the ratio in Westminster is 450 for remain and 150 for leave. Cameron would have to resign with a Brexit vote but the Brexiters do not have a mandate to take over (do people want Gove or Bojo as PM) - which would necessitate new elections with a very uncertain result. This is not scaremongering as such. No more than a certain amount of scaremongering is necessary when you see someone about to jump off a cliff ! Those currently waving Union jacks should maybe stop and think that if they are successfull it will quite probably lead to the break up of the UK. and the consequent consignment of that flag to the dustbin.
That's a very interesting piece Stan, I think it illustrates how a country's history can colour their judgement of what the EU has to offer. You quote examples of countries that have been 'swallowed up' by the Soviet juggernaut and others that have been parts of other dynasties over the centuries and they obviously feel safer in the more open EU fraternity. Also, the French guy absolutely hits the nail on the head, we have been resisting the 'Superstate' side of the EU from the start. I also think the historical side of Britain always being a 'power' and the colonial past makes us being a lesser partner in such a 'Superstate' less palatable. Logic is not high on the agenda...
It was a very interesting week Sooper, and I have to say Prague is a very civilised city, really liked it.
And a small confession (hope Fingy doesn't spot this), as usual where it is available I used the services of Uber (except in the UK, never used it there). And, as usual excellent service. Every single US and European Uber driver I have encountered does it to supplement their 'main' income - yesterday a Slovak bloke, who was setting up his own company around procurement for machine tool manufacturing. From what you have posted, if I remember correctly, most London Uber drivers are trying to make their main living from it, I really don't think it works for this. This bloke was very open - he reckons there are 3 good, transparent 'yellow cab' firms in Prague, but outside of this there are some real Cowboys, rip off merchants, and Uber does offer some protection from these blokes. But the surge pricing is a real problem, because it seems arbitrary. About 1,000 Uber drivers in Prague. For me, it's always about the convenience (never having to get my wallet out, tracking, having info on who is driving you etc) rather than the price (about £7 for a 25 minute ride from the town centre to the airport). Did you know that Uber drivers also rate their fares? You have to ask your driver how you are rated, they use it to decide whether to accept a job. I am the proud recipient of a 5/5 score. I only discovered this when a Dutch driver volunteered it. Since I never tip (defeats the point of not getting my wallet out) but always shake the drivers hand and chat, I suppose my social skills are better than the impression that may be given on here......
Unrelated to this, well done the Tories for saying they will not contest the seat so sadly left vacant by the murder of Jo Cox.
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Interesting then that Labour MP and friend of Jo Cox, Rachel Reeves has commented that her death was unlikely to be linked to the referendum and should not be politicised. Of course, there will be those on the Remain side that want to shut down the debate on the scale of immigration.
Apparently he said in court that his name was 'Death to all traitors, freedom for Britain`, and that only a few days before the biggest vote in British history, do you still have doubts as to his motives ? I do not think that this should be politicized but.....they are an example of some of the hate which exists in Britain, and he did not form that hatred on a little island of his own, but was open to lies and propaganda just like others - though his reaction was that of a madman. Look at some of the posters brought out by Ukip in the past based on immigration, not so disimilar from some of the Nazi propaganda of the 30s - are the producers of this free of all guilt ?
It is an absolute disgrace that strolls and others on here are using this shocking death as a means to further their campaign of discrediting the leave side over immigration.
I said this would happen and it has.
The "racism" card will be played right up till the vote.
This poor woman's tragic killing should not be used in this way.
We're agreed the killer's a madman. What singled out Cox in his warped mind was her work to bring in Syrian refugees - she was not a notable personality in the Remain campaign. We're also agreed that recently, in the heat of this disagreable but vital debate, Farage has stepped over the line. I don't condone that and he needs to be more responsible.
But you cannot close down the debate on immigration or more of these demons will come out of the woodwork. The extreme right is rising all over Europe. Governments have to address what is fuelling it.
Totally agree. There is real pain being felt by groups of ordinary people as a result of our government(s) failing to plan for the effects of people wanting to come and live/work here from elsewhere. They have to understand it needs to change if they are to continue to keep their jobs. We just differ on the most effective method.
I agree that my post was not in the best of taste and obviously my first concern is for the family concerned, however, had this attack had another background eg. IRA or from a radical Islamic background then it would have become a political issue very quickly (whatever the medical history of the person concerned). What would the reaction have been if the criminal had been Rumanian, and the victim Farage ? It would have been used very quickly as a political tool. If it takes this tragic event to shake people out of this collective quasi patriotic intoxification and start using reason rather than the endless search for finding scapegoats then her death will not have been totally in vain.