Off Topic The Politics Thread

[rangercol]

When did I say that? You're starting to sound like Gove and Co spouting out lies about what people are saying!

You can't tell me how we would reduce immigration by leaving the eu but expect me to explain how we would reduce it by staying in?

If it wasn't you I apologise.

You are an angry person aren't you?
We would reduce immigration by only letting in the people we want to let in.
If there is a delay to doing that we should ignore what the EU says and do it anyway. There will be many challenges if we leave. All worthwhile imo.
You don't agree with this.

So.....
How would you reduce immigration in the event of a vote to remain?
Or are you not bothered?

 

[sb_73]

This is what the EU does for the British economy

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Careful mate. Don't let facts get in the way
The remainers won't like that.

I have tried to find the source for this cut and pasted list. It comes from a blog called GrassrootsOut Supporter, by someone with the imaginative name of Bill Stickers, too shy to give us his real background, which is of course a font of Brexit propaganda, which seems very popular with BNP followers. None of the EU references are sourced, and when you take the time to dig a little deeper, as I did with Dyson and Texas Instruments (my time isn't that valuable, but I haven't got so much left to waste), there turns out to be zero EU connection. Dyson, for ****s sake, is pro Brexit, but like all businessmen he puts his shareholders and his company ahead of his workers.

The issue you are highlighting here is globalisation. We can have a referendum on that every day of the week until kingdom come and it won't make a blind bit of difference. The people you should be allied to if you really don't like this kind of stuff are the anarchist/ hard left protesters who turn up at all the G7-20 summits. Of course, the best chance of making a difference and protecting British jobs would be voting for Jeremy Corbyn, another anti- globalist.

 

[East Herts Rangers]

If you're worried about the number of jobs moved into the eu from grants whilst we are here then imagine for a moment what it would be like if we left, the eu will fall over themselves to fund moving jobs from here into countries with high unemployment, it would help their economy by keeping the money and jobs within the block and reduce the cost of the product for their members due to lower tariffs and cheaper production. We've already heard from various business leaders that they may have to move many jobs anyway just to keep themselves within the eu as would damage their businesses by not doing so with regulations etc.

If you're worried about the number of jobs moved into the eu from grants whilst we are here then imagine for a moment what it would be like if we left, the eu will fall over themselves to fund moving jobs from here into countries with high unemployment, it would help their economy by keeping the money and jobs within the block and reduce the cost of the product for their members due to lower tariffs and cheaper production. We've already heard from various business leaders that they may have to move many jobs anyway just to keep themselves within the eu as would damage their businesses by not doing so with regulations etc.

A vote to remain is to support the continued hemorrhaging of UK based jobs to lower cost economies. My wife was made redundant last year as her job was off-shored to Poland by a major UK company despite a pledge by the CEO to Cameron just after he received his knighthood that his company had no plans to move any UK based jobs abroad. The smug sausage rolls now carrying out her role (who have no clue what they are doing BTW) are in for a bit of a shock next year when those jobs are moved to an even lower cost economy in Costa Rica. Still they can come over here and pick strawberries at an attractive minimum wage, access the NHS, have people falling over themselves to translate anything they don't understand to make sure they claim everything they are "entitled to" it is a ****ing joke and needs to stop NOW.

 

[Supergod00]

If it wasn't you I apologise.

You are an angry person aren't you?
We would reduce immigration by only letting in the people we want to let in.
If there is a delay to doing that we should ignore what the EU says and do it anyway. There will be many challenges if we leave. All worthwhile imo.
You don't agree with this.

So.....
How would you reduce immigration in the event of a vote to remain?
Or are you not bothered?

Nope, wasn't me! I get angry at the fact that I am potentially going to be seriously financially effected by other people's choices that are based on lies, misinformation and racism(not you specifically).

If only life was as simple as saying 'we'll just ignore what they say' but I'm afraid it's not, we would isolate ourselves from the international community and would be present ourselves as completely untrustworthy with anyone we want to do business with, it won't happen at all not a chance, there's a very real chance we could end up with a Norway style deal which would include large payments in and allowing free movement!

There's no simple solution to reducing immigration, it comes hand in hand with having a strong economy which like it or not we owe in part to eu membership. I would also argue that it is actually the non eu migration that puts the biggest strain on our services, eu migrants tend to be more likely to come alone, work and not claim benefits therefore paying in more then they take out whereas non eu ones are more likely to come with big families with the intent of settling and are happy to claim away. I think whether we stay or go the eu is on course for change anyway, largely due to the refugee/migrant crisis but also because of some larger countries unhappy with the policy, personally I would look to make a deal on reducing the rights to work etc and make it clear that if we didn't get our way we would start throwing our veto around to cause trouble, we just haven't yet had a government with the backbone to do that!

 

[East Herts Rangers]

I have tried to find the source for this cut and pasted list. It comes from a blog called GrassrootsOut Supporter, by someone with the imaginative name of Bill Stickers, too shy to give us his real background, which is of course a font of Brexit propaganda. None of the EU references are sourced, and when you take the time to dig a little deeper, as I did with Dyson and Texas Instruments (my time isn't that valuable, but I haven't got so much left to waste), there turns out to be zero EU connection. Dyson, for ****s sake, is pro Brexit, but like all businessmen he puts his shareholders and his company ahead of his workers.

The issue you are highlighting here is globalisation. We can have a referendum on that every day of the week until kingdom come and it won't make a blind bit of difference. The people you should be allied to if you really don't like this kind of stuff are the anarchist/ hard left protesters who turn up at all the G7-20 summits. Of course, the best chance of making a difference and protecting British jobs would be voting for Jeremy Corbyn, another anti- globalist.

The UK don't have a say in whether Hinckley Point nuclear power station will be built. The decision will be made in France & it will depend upon half a dozen French union members who sit on EDF's board and if they say "non" that's that. What sort of country allows its ongoing energy needs to be decided by a few commie hillbillies. MADNESS
Altogether now "We want our country back"[/QUOTE]

 

[Supergod00]

A vote to remain is to support the continued hemorrhaging of UK based jobs to lower cost economies. My wife was made redundant last year as her job was off-shored to Poland by a major UK company despite a pledge by the CEO to Cameron just after he received his knighthood that his company had no plans to move any UK based jobs abroad. The smug sausage rolls now carrying out her role (who have no clue what they are doing BTW) are in for a bit of a shock next year when those jobs are moved to an even lower cost economy in Costa Rica. Still they can come over here and pick strawberries at an attractive minimum wage, access the NHS, have people falling over themselves to translate anything they don't understand to make sure they claim everything they are "entitled to" it is a ****ing joke and needs to stop NOW.

Eu workers tend to claim very little in the way of benefits, the minority that take the piss aren't a reflection of them all, also fees of eu citizens treated on the nhs are generally charged back to their own countries health care system, again it's the ones from outside the eu that cost the money and this referendum won't make any difference to that. If you think a vote to stay is a vote to see jobs hemorrage to the eu then you're in for a bloody shock if we leave, the number of jobs going will go up massively as it'll be completely in the eu interest to move as many jobs as they can there from us to make up for the economic damage caused to them by us leaving, the grass won't be greener on the other side I'm afraid!

 

[TootingExcess]

The UK don't have a say in whether Hinckley Point nuclear power station will be built. The decision will be made in France & it will depend upon half a dozen French union members who sit on EDF's board and if they say "non" that's that. What sort of country allows its ongoing energy needs to be decided by a few commie hillbillies. MADNESS
Altogether now "We want our country back"

[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with the EU. The Tories sold off our electricity generation in the 90s, EDF is the nationalised French equivalent of the old CEGB.

Do you want our industry renationalised from the owners the Tories and the city sold them to?

That's a genuine question by the way

 

[sb_73]

The UK don't have a say in whether Hinckley Point nuclear power station will be built. The decision will be made in France & it will depend upon half a dozen French union members who sit on EDF's board and if they say "non" that's that. What sort of country allows its ongoing energy needs to be decided by a few commie hillbillies. MADNESS
Altogether now "We want our country back"

[/QUOTE]
That's just rubbish. The U.K. Government decided to build another nuclear power station, then decided to award the contract to a French part state owned company, and finance it with Chinese money, by guaranteeing a price for the electricity it generates above what the 'market' would provide. The EDF union representatives don't think their company can stay afloat with this commitment, they are trying to protect their own jobs. But because they are French I suppose you don't think they should be allowed to. Shame the British don't have unions able to do the shame, otherwise some of the non EU related job losses you list above may not have happened.

Admit it, you are a socialist.

 

[rangercol]

Nope, wasn't me! I get angry at the fact that I am potentially going to be seriously financially effected by other people's choices that are based on lies, misinformation and racism(not you specifically).

If only life was as simple as saying 'we'll just ignore what they say' but I'm afraid it's not, we would isolate ourselves from the international community and would be present ourselves as completely untrustworthy with anyone we want to do business with, it won't happen at all not a chance, there's a very real chance we could end up with a Norway style deal which would include large payments in and allowing free movement!

There's no simple solution to reducing immigration, it comes hand in hand with having a strong economy which like it or not we owe in part to eu membership. I would also argue that it is actually the non eu migration that puts the biggest strain on our services, eu migrants tend to be more likely to come alone, work and not claim benefits therefore paying in more then they take out whereas non eu ones are more likely to come with big families with the intent of settling and are happy to claim away. I think whether we stay or go the eu is on course for change anyway, largely due to the refugee/migrant crisis but also because of some larger countries unhappy with the policy, personally I would look to make a deal on reducing the rights to work etc and make it clear that if we didn't get our way we would start throwing our veto around to cause trouble, we just haven't yet had a government with the backbone to do that!

Thanks for that and apologies again for the misidentification.
For me, the financial hit that we MAY take is acceptable.
A poll just released shows that those with money are much more inclined to vote remain whilst those not worrying about their next luxury holiday or which private school to send Harriet to are genuinely worried about how their country is changing for ever and how ttheir local services are being over run.

 

[Stroller]

Thanks for that and apologies again for the misidentification.
For me, the financial hit that we MAY take is acceptable.
A poll just released shows that those with money are much more inclined to vote remain whilst those not worrying about their next luxury holiday or which private school to send Harriet to are genuinely worried about how their country is changing for ever and how ttheir local services are being over run.

Their services are being overrun because their government won't fund them properly. In the event of a Leave vote, pretty much everyone - including the Leave campaign - accepts that there will be an economic downturn. The differences of opinion revolve around how deep the downturn might go and how long it might last. A post-Brexit Tory government will have to choose between tax rises or more austerity - which way do you think they will go? The less well-off people in the poll you quote are turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[sb_73]

Thanks for that and apologies again for the misidentification.
For me, the financial hit that we MAY take is acceptable.
A poll just released shows that those with money are much more inclined to vote remain whilst those not worrying about their next luxury holiday or which private school to send Harriet to are genuinely worried about how their country is changing for ever and how ttheir local services are being over run.

Bit bitchy Col, my daughters name isn't Harriet. Her education is ****ing expensive though, I'm having to take 2 of my holidays in the UK this year While we are at it the better educated favour remain as well. If you want to level the playing field vote for Corbyn when you next get the chance, perhaps education and life chances will improve.

Primary health care services in some areas and schools in some areas need help. They will still need help if we stop immigration tomorrow, the pressure is already in the system. The money is there, EU migrants have a net benefit to the economy of £2.5bn. But it's being used to fill in the hole the bankers left us in. We can only address the cultural changes by getting rid of people already here or dispersing them over the country, and I know you are not advocating that. The problems with our hospitals are not, I think, linked to immigration ( which is vital for the NHS workforce).

Fair enough on the possible financial hit as a personal choice, which is the only basis on which we can vote. I hope everyone voting Brexit has weighed it up like you have.

 

[rangercol]

Bit bitchy Col, my daughters name isn't Harriet. Her education is ****ing expensive though, I'm having to take 2 of my holidays in the UK this year While we are at it the better educated favour remain as well. If you want to level the playing field vote for Corbyn when you next get the chance, perhaps education and life chances will improve.

Primary health care services in some areas and schools in some areas need help. They will still need help if we stop immigration tomorrow, the pressure is already in the system. The money is there, EU migrants have a net benefit to the economy of £2.5bn. But it's being used to fill in the hole the bankers left us in. We can only address the cultural changes by getting rid of people already here or dispersing them over the country, and I know you are not advocating that. The problems with our hospitals are not, I think, linked to immigration ( which is vital for the NHS workforce).

Fair enough on the possible financial hit as a personal choice, which is the only basis on which we can vote. I hope everyone voting Brexit has weighed it up like you have.

Yep fair enough. Apologies.
Whisky taken.
I'll never vote for Corbyn and I'm reasonably content with my life choices.
I stand by my belief that the EU is an elitist club that favours the well off individuals and countries.
There are millions of young Europeans on the unemployment scrap heap as the EU economy nose dives.
It is one of the worst performing trading blocks in the world. So I don't buy into all the economic armageddon forecasts for us if we leave. I also stand by my belief that local services in many areas have definitely been effected by being put under extra pressure from immigration. The people in these areas certainly seem to feel this to be the case. I note you disagree.
Anyway, apologies again. It wasn't meant as a personal attack.
I'd best leave this till the country have been scared into voting remain, which I still feel is what will happen.
I predict 52% - 48% remain.

 

[Supergod00]

Thanks for that and apologies again for the misidentification.
For me, the financial hit that we MAY take is acceptable.
A poll just released shows that those with money are much more inclined to vote remain whilst those not worrying about their next luxury holiday or which private school to send Harriet to are genuinely worried about how their country is changing for ever and how ttheir local services are being over run.

There is a consensus across the board that we WILL take a fanacial hit if we leave, the only questions is how bad and how long it'll last? You may say it's acceptable now but an extra 5 years of austerity might change your tune when your wages are down and cost of living are through the roof, you'll probably also notice no difference at all on a personal level that we've left.

You should take heed that it's people with money that want to stay in, have you ever seen a situation where the rich lose out and the normal person thrives? **** roles down hill don't forget, if the execs and owners lose money they pass it on to you and I.

 

[rangercol]

There is a consensus across the board that we WILL take a fanacial hit if we leave, the only questions is how bad and how long it'll last? You may say it's acceptable now but an extra 5 years of austerity might change your tune when your wages are down and cost of living are through the roof, you'll probably also notice no difference at all on a personal level that we've left.

You should take heed that it's people with money that want to stay in, have you ever seen a situation where the rich lose out and the normal person thrives? **** roles down hill don't forget, if the execs and owners lose money they pass it on to you and I.

Economic forecasts are worthless imo.
Anyway I'm leaving this now.

I've said my piece.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

The less well-off people in the poll you quote are turkeys voting for Christmas.

No mention then of British workers being undercut by East European immigrants who have been living below our poverty line and will inhabit poor conditions to keep their prices low. Fantastic for the wealthy who want to put a new swimming pool in their basement.

 

[Supergod00]

Economic forecasts are worthless imo.
Anyway I'm leaving this now.

I've said my piece.

Now who's got their head in the sand? You've got your opinion and that's fair enough, I just hope that we don't all come to regret the result in years to come!

 

[Supergod00]

No mention then of British workers being undercut by East European immigrants who have been living below our poverty line and will inhabit poor conditions to keep their prices low. Fantastic for the wealthy who want to put a new swimming pool in their basement.

Also fantastic for the consumer who benefits from lower prices. How many British folk would sit on a bench on wheels travelling through a field sorting potatoes on zero hour contracts for minimum wage? Some farms have 80% low skill eu migrant workers, swap that for Brits on living wage with 40 hour contracts, holiday/sick/maternity pay and pension payments and you'll soon see the price of your shopping go through the roof!

 

[Stroller]

No mention then of British workers being undercut by East European immigrants who have been living below our poverty line and will inhabit poor conditions to keep their prices low. Fantastic for the wealthy who want to put a new swimming pool in their basement.

Should we you do away with the minimum wage then Goldie? That would stop these pesky EU immigrants coming here wouldn't it? Irrelevant really, because there will likely be no jobs left for them to steal.

I

 

[QPR999]

Whether or not the terrible murder of Jo Cox turns out to have some connection to the EU referendum, there seems to me to be little doubt that some of the passions stirred by this campaign have dark undertones. Immigration seems to be the issue that is moving voters towards Leave, fuelled by disgusting stunts like this.

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The people in that poster are not EU citizens of course.

Whichever side wins out, Britain has become a nastier place thanks to this unwanted and unnecessary process.

**** off Cameron, **** off 'sir' Lynton Crosby, **** off Johnson, **** off Farage.

**** all of you.

Early indications would suggest that this is not the case.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

This is a photo of Thomas Mair, described by the media as the 'quiet', 'timid' and 'lonely gardener’, giving a Nazi salute. My apologies Strolls.

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[GoldhawkRoad]

Also fantastic for the consumer who benefits from lower prices. How many British folk would sit on a bench on wheels travelling through a field sorting potatoes on zero hour contracts for minimum wage? Some farms have 80% low skill eu migrant workers, swap that for Brits on living wage with 40 hour contracts, holiday/sick/maternity pay and pension payments and you'll soon see the price of your shopping go through the roof!

If we need farm workers, they will still come after Brexit - by invitation