Off Topic European Debate Thread

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In, out, or undecided?

  • In

    Votes: 12 27.3%

  • Out

    Votes: 27 61.4%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 11.4%
  • Total voters
    44
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BCFCRob said:
Cheers. It's basically the only niggling point for me. Other than that, for me:

OUT: I'm 24 and seriously struggling to buy a house, despite (without being arrogant) earning a hell of a lot more than most my age. The thought of needing another 4 Birmingham's by 2030 is frightening, particularly for public services, I don't see a problem with sovereignty right now (it's no different to our unelected House of Lords) but I do see there being a problem in the future with the way it's escalating. Economically I think we will struggle for some years but in the long term we will come back, we are the fifth richest country in the world after all. The thought of Turkey joining is disgusting, and shows the EU has lost its morals.

IN: There is a hell of a lot of uncertainty, we could see a fair few years or serious struggling for a while. I don't want to lose our Human Rights Act. I'm worried that the right-wing will take over politically. I hate extreme followers of both wings with a passion but I see the right as being much more dangerous than the left. And people love to ignore it, but the EU has done a hell of a lot for us in terms of personal rights and peace. People can scaremonger about terrorism but it's because we live in a more informational age. The number of people dying in Europe through terrorism has been declining for 20/30 years. There's no guarantee of a good deal and no guarantee we won't have to listen to the ECHR.

Still not 100% sure, but I think I'm out...
Click to expand...

I'm a utilitarian,

https://eurometer.news.sky.com
 
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utilitarianism
jʊˌtɪlɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: utilitarianism
the doctrine that actions are right if they are useful or for the benefit of a majority.
  • the doctrine that an action is right in so far as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number should be the guiding principle of conduct.

.......and me..
 
wizered said:
utilitarianism
jʊˌtɪlɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: utilitarianism
the doctrine that actions are right if they are useful or for the benefit of a majority.
  • the doctrine that an action is right in so far as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number should be the guiding principle of conduct.

.......and me..
Click to expand...
Is it good then?
 
BCFCRob said:
Answer the point. You said the problem is the Human Rights Act. What specific part do you think is the problem?
Click to expand...
in its entirety it is a problem .. but unfortunately it has been thrust upon us an entire thing .. there are numerous stupid things about it .. and most revolve around wrong doers claiming they are being abused .. or committing acts they know will if caught be lenient because they can use the HRA prescedents to get out of or serve a comfy punishment ..
 
jumped a few pages .. where a reply may have possible but basically covered ..

the start of the conundrum was when we joined the "common market" and Maggie admitted as did a load of MP'S at the time what we signed up for was not exactly what we got ... there was a very good programme on the TV about it ..
we seem to have drifted or been guided away from this .. a subtle change every few months/ periods of time, out voted and gone from a "common market to trade freely" to a federalist state where our queen/parliament/lawmakers etc are told what to do and YOU WILL pay us to tell you what you can or cannot do ...
 
johngalleyfan2 said:
in its entirety it is a problem .. but unfortunately it has been thrust upon us an entire thing .. there are numerous stupid things about it .. and most revolve around wrong doers claiming they are being abused .. or committing acts they know will if caught be lenient because they can use the HRA prescedents to get out of or serve a comfy punishment ..
Click to expand...

<doh>
 
BCFCRob said:
I don't see a problem with sovereignty right now (it's no different to our unelected House of Lords) but I do see there being a problem in the future with the way it's escalating.
IN: There is a hell of a lot of uncertainty, we could see a fair few years or serious struggling for a while. I don't want to lose our Human Rights Act. I'm worried that the right-wing will take over politically. I hate extreme followers of both wings with a passion but I see the right as being much more dangerous than the left. And people love to ignore it, but the EU has done a hell of a lot for us in terms of personal rights and peace.
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem with sovereignty right now (it's no different to our unelected House of Lords) ... Its completely different. The Lords acts as an upper house to Parliament that can alter legislation formulated by a democratically elected government,. It cannot impose, or create laws for other states.

I do see there being a problem in the future with the way it's escalating... And further political
intergration is being proposed, which will only undermine democracy further.

I'm worried that the right-wing will take over politically ... The Conservatives are right wing. Why would being in the EU, alter the political compass of the UK's voters to go for something more radical?

And people love to ignore it, but the EU has done a hell of a lot for us in terms of personal rights and peace. ... What has the EU done for you? For myself it has had a negative affect in my area of employment - social care. Being members of Nato has helped keep peace. The EU's ideas of its own army? Nah. Nato has served Britain well.
 
Most of the fundamental questions asked and debated on here answered...

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Cliftonville said:
I don't see a problem with sovereignty right now (it's no different to our unelected House of Lords) ... Its completely different. The Lords acts as an upper house to Parliament that can alter legislation formulated by a democratically elected government,. It cannot impose, or create laws for other states.

I do see there being a problem in the future with the way it's escalating... And further political
intergration is being proposed, which will only undermine democracy further.

I'm worried that the right-wing will take over politically ... The Conservatives are right wing. Why would being in the EU, alter the political compass of the UK's voters to go for something more radical?

And people love to ignore it, but the EU has done a hell of a lot for us in terms of personal rights and peace. ... What has the EU done for you? For myself it has had a negative affect in my area of employment - social care. Being members of Nato has helped keep peace. The EU's ideas of its own army? Nah. Nato has served Britain well.
Click to expand...

But going by that logic, you could argue that the EU acts as an upper house to our own democratically elected Government. It's an expanded view and it's clutching at straws somewhat but there is relevance.

I think I've heard all I need to hear anyway. Sorting my postal vote soon.
 
BCFCRob said:
But going by that logic, you could argue that the EU acts as an upper house to our own democratically elected Government. It's an expanded view and it's clutching at straws somewhat but there is relevance
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No logic or relevance in that argument.. The house of Lords gets a final say on laws passed by a democratic government, its a fail safe on really bad laws and in my opinion they overstep their authority on occasion anyway.. The EU is an unelected parliament passing laws that sit above ours that we get no say or input in creating.
 
RedorDead said:
Why are people voting by post? That's MTG and you Rob or are you both out the country?
Just curious that's all, I'm going to voting station on the 23rd
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I'll be at Glasto during the vote. <cool>

banksyisourhero said:
No logic or relevance in that argument.. The house of Lords gets a final say on laws passed by a democratic government, its a fail safe on really bad laws and in my opinion they overstep their authority on occasion anyway.. The EU is an unelected parliament passing laws that sit above ours that we get no say or input in creating.
Click to expand...

Well there is in a sense. If you converted that bold bit to 'The EU gets a final say on laws on behalf of a democratic government' then it's very similar and not untrue. Either way, in both the EU and UK law there is an opportunity for unelected people to have the final say, though admittedly it's more prevalent in the former.

I will be voting out anyways regardless.
 
BCFCRob said:
I'll be at Glasto during the vote. <cool>



Well there is in a sense. If you converted that bold bit to 'The EU gets a final say on laws on behalf of a democratic government' then it's very similar and not untrue. Either way, in both the EU and UK law there is an opportunity for unelected people to have the final say, though admittedly it's more prevalent in the former.

I will be voting out anyways regardless.
Click to expand...


Your continuing to miss the point here Rob.. The EU laws are made by an unelected EU parliament. They aren't the 'final say' they are the 'only say'! and the people don't get to appoint the people deciding those laws.

I though they were having voting booths at Glasto?
 
RedorDead said:
Why are people voting by post? That's MTG and you Rob or are you both out the country?
Just curious that's all, I'm going to voting station on the 23rd
Click to expand...
Got my last 4 exams in the next 4 working days after the referendum. It'll only take half an hour to go and vote but it's just easier to do it in advanced since I was decided
 
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