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Lucas is so good he can play anywhere we should try him up front.
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Super G Ted'inho
Guest
So lets look back in the cold light of day having enjoyed it last night.
What worked, what didn't.
1. Its clear klopp ate the arses out of them after west ham game. Everyone played a bit better but their team work was better.
2. They tired badly in second half form 60mins on.
3. We had a plan for stoke which was to deny their front 4 ball by cutting it off higher up and it worked really well.
4. The system was deffo different than last night 433 compared to 4231. the distinction is BOTH no benteke and an extra CM player.
5. firmino really worked himself into the ground but in general he tried to get it and move it quickly, when he did others found space. He tired as the game wore on
6. allen played more advanced in first half before lovern went off. He was getting forward into box and making extra man.
7. for me the press was higher up the pitch and focused on areas. thier full backs were really hassled and got caught out on numerous occasions. the same for the two CMs. Stoke's tactics and team allowed us to focus on these guys as then all the cb or GK for them could do was lump it as a midget up top and we mopped that up easy. That gave us a platform to play off we didn't get in other games. stoke didn't have the quality to cope and reacted by taking off cameron and moving affelay back there and put on walters.
8. We were still quite wasteful in front of goal and didn't actually create many really good scoring chances. There was one or two that just went a begging like firminos run into box having robbed stoke.
9. Hamstring injuries made us change a lot, lucas at the back was a disaster but we saw him do well as the opposition suited him and by the end stoke didn't really create anything when the tall guys came one. Contrast to the Watford game where we got done by this late on... we protect him well.. he also did well for what was needed to be done
10 benteke didn't react well i felt to being on bench or klopps words. He really didn't help out when he came on. If had a guy come on with your team mates having run themselves into the ground and basically didn't just get stuck in you'd be unhappy in a sunday league game.
What worked, what didn't.
1. Its clear klopp ate the arses out of them after west ham game. Everyone played a bit better but their team work was better.
2. They tired badly in second half form 60mins on.
3. We had a plan for stoke which was to deny their front 4 ball by cutting it off higher up and it worked really well.
4. The system was deffo different than last night 433 compared to 4231. the distinction is BOTH no benteke and an extra CM player.
5. firmino really worked himself into the ground but in general he tried to get it and move it quickly, when he did others found space. He tired as the game wore on
6. allen played more advanced in first half before lovern went off. He was getting forward into box and making extra man.
7. for me the press was higher up the pitch and focused on areas. thier full backs were really hassled and got caught out on numerous occasions. the same for the two CMs. Stoke's tactics and team allowed us to focus on these guys as then all the cb or GK for them could do was lump it as a midget up top and we mopped that up easy. That gave us a platform to play off we didn't get in other games. stoke didn't have the quality to cope and reacted by taking off cameron and moving affelay back there and put on walters.
8. We were still quite wasteful in front of goal and didn't actually create many really good scoring chances. There was one or two that just went a begging like firminos run into box having robbed stoke.
9. Hamstring injuries made us change a lot, lucas at the back was a disaster but we saw him do well as the opposition suited him and by the end stoke didn't really create anything when the tall guys came one. Contrast to the Watford game where we got done by this late on... we protect him well.. he also did well for what was needed to be done
10 benteke didn't react well i felt to being on bench or klopps words. He really didn't help out when he came on. If had a guy come on with your team mates having run themselves into the ground and basically didn't just get stuck in you'd be unhappy in a sunday league game.
Pretty well nails it. I don't want this to turn into a benteke bashing session, but,like Balotelli, I fear he just doesn't have the intelligence to play any system apart from everyone playing around him as the focus. This, more than anything else, is where we miss Studge - he can play in multiple systems, pulls defenders all around the pitch and creates space and, most importantly, scores more than he misses.
But let's put one argument to bed - although we need to tighten up defensively and a DM of class is required (but, even though Johnson got some excellent crosses in during the first half, didn't Moreno pleasantly surprise stopping crosses in the second, for a change?), this is the way we need to play, especially away from home. Benteke is plan B till the end of the season now. It's not his fault - we've bought a 4x4 SUV when we really wanted a sports car,
I think I'd like to get some shots of the team positioning during the press.
I think it'd be interesting to see how the formation helped both full backs wide and also enabled the wide forwards to get in at their full backs and how we got at their CMs.
Was it purely down to 3 CMs and tw wide men or was firmino very withdrawn leaving the two cbs alone?
The best way to counter two big, ugly c/b's is not to get a big, ugly c/f to stand next to them, that's for sure.I remember Andy Cole, of all people, absolutely destroying big yard-dog centre-backs by constantly moving and making space between the lines of defence and midfield. It's what Benteke simply can't do.
yes but just reviewing the pressing where was he going i wonder.
same for lallana and coutinho.
In the 4231 benteke is told go close odwn the two cbs a bit and the other 3 are supposedly meant to press then but they wander about and end up nowhere.
In this 433 coutinho was distinctly wide left and lallana wide right with allen pushing on as well. If firmino was closing down the cms rather than CBs then that would indicate a clear tactical plan.
We deffo targetted butland and cbs passing wide to full backs and any ball to a cm with back to goal.
in attacking play firmino was certinaly deeper and wider at times and played only one or two touches usually.
Think the point of 4-3-3 is that the front three are fluid and totally unmarkable. Bit like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, the opposition defence shouldn't be able to 100% predict where they'll turn up. With Benteke, you know he'll always be close to the cb's whether we have the ball or they do.
yes, not under rodgers of course but yesterday there was a distinct you are left side coutinho or ibe and lallana you are right side and firmino move about a lot. in seocnd half he ploughed a more lone furrow up top... I don't thin kthose left and right side positions are to do with benteke or no benteke.
I also wonder that the 3 CMs allowed more ability for the CM on the left or right to go help the full back more and close those wing areas off.
I think that we finally controlled a midfield zone for the first time in ages yesterday. thats also not just benteke. Allen, deserves a lot of credit there and lucas and can did better with him i think than they have done when in a pair.
The other thing we can't ignore is stoke got hugely more into it with walters up top as the ball was not always coming right back at them with clearances. With bojan, shaqiri and the other fella (i won't attempt to spell) our lads though slow as **** could scoop up all the long stuff.
I just think its simplistic to think that
a) play this v arsenal and it'll work
b) its all down to one player
c) we won't revert to lazy play again
I'm not saying that. Let me put it this way:
a) play like we did against watford and west ham against Arsenal and we'll get ****ed.
b) Play Benteke against Arsenal and we'll get ****ed
c) Revert to lazy play (like floating the ball to a static Benteke standing next to Mertesacker) and we'll get ****ed.
There are many other approaches to the future that could see us get ****ed too, but the above three are certainties to getting ****ed.
a) agreed
b) who knows.. mertesacker is a big guy and he'd rather a static player for sure. however benteke could actually bother himself and move. its all about attitude.. equally we could go same team as last night.. well with CBs and get whupped by arsenal too.
c) lazy play aint just donkeying it, its not closing down and working like klopp wants.
S
Super G Ted'inho
Guest
I'd hope so.
we owe them a few. we did ok in first game but we will have to see what players we do have.