Saint Cedric!
- Thread starter Jose Fonte baby
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Just out of interest, how many great crossers, and by that I mean sticking the ball on a striker's head/toe more often than not, are there left in the game? I think it's died out more rapidly than tackling. Commentaries are littered with "What a cross! He just needed someone to get on the end of that!" when in fact they should have put their head up and picked out a target.
He's a full back - his job is to defend first and if he's a good crosser of the ball that's a bonus. Its the job of wide attacking midfielders to have a good cross in their weaponry. Very pleased with the signing and I have total faith in the scouting team and their black box to make the right choices for us.
There is no ill feeling from the Sporting fans at all, they all seem happy for him and pleased/surprised the fee is as high as it is. The scout you mentioned may have a different opinion on him, but scouts don't always get it right. Generally, fans who watch players weekly over a couple of years tend to have a better grasp of a players limitations.
"Very glad we sold him. As I said in a previous thread, he was kinda bad this season, horrible crosser and mediocre defending but he was very good 2/3 seasons ago. I don't follow Premier League football, but he shouldn't be more than a second choice, even if Clyne leaves."
"Cedric suffers from the Postiga syndrome: he looked really good when he was in his 20s because you expected him to evolved beyond his flaws.
But he didn't and, as he got older, he just became a mediocre player."
I'm not saying I think he will be a bad signing, I'm just going to wait and see how he does. I must admit I was very surprised at the volume of negative comments about him here
Bertrand had a not so good season at villa before he came to us and Ron got the best out of him, I am sure with Fontes help the boy will do well.
I agree with everything bar the first line. Football moved in a long time ago from saying a Full backs job is to defend - crossing is a bonus. There is no doubt that today's good full backs are expected to be good going forward.
Hi FLT - my only thought on your comment would be to write that if we were looking for a wing-back I would agree with you wholeheartedly - whom I would consider to be a more offensive 'full back'. I also agree that a modern full back is expected to get forward more, but ultimately - the position calls for him to be first and foremost a defender.
When Shaw went through the season here he amazed and frustrated, not in equal measure. His scales were very much tipped in the amazement area. His speed was phenomenal, ie, as fast as Nat Clyne, and his defending ability and concentration was already hugely impressive. He had two weaknesses: one, he couldn't effectively get past 70 minutes, and two, his crosses came to absolutely nothing. That might be a little to do with the people on the receiving end, but they were Lambert, Rodriguez and occasionally Guly, so to miss them on a regular basis took some effort. I remember one cross, which wasn't really a cross, which eventually fell to Puncheon, who controlled it and volleyed into the net to make it 2-2 away to Chelsea.
Moving onto Bertrand. I had reasonable hopes. He defended well; he positioned himself better than Shaw, and he concentrated well. He lasted 90 minutes, as you'd expect from a fully mature player. I thought thank goodness, he's as good as I hoped, and then boom.! He sent over his first cross in a match and it had more venom, accuracy and sheer bloody menace written on it than anything Shaw had put over in any of his games for Saints. And he kept on putting balls into areas that Shaw could only dream about doing. So Saints have come out of it with around £20M clear and a better FB.
Exactly although I would suggest 'That might be a little to do with the people on the receiving end is being polite or diplomatic or just downright overly generous. It was more to do with an ability to get the ball past the man who is trying to stop the cross. We got lots of corners though.
I totally agree that crossing is now a necessary part of a fullback's game, but on the other hand I also take fan judgment of crosses with a grain of salt.
I mean, it's pretty much the number one complaint of every fullbackr. "Yeah, he's really fast but his crossing sucks." And I do it, too. Nothing is more frustrating than a long, exciting run down the flanks and you get excited and then some crap cross immediately turning it into nothing. I think 95% of fullbacks and wings can't cross, either.
But I guess it is probably not that easy to be running full-steam ahead one direction and then kick the ball 90 degrees from that direction to pick out a guy's head who is probably in between two other gigantic guys.
Plus, you know... that's sort of why they are fullbacks (or wingers). If they were able to dribble with their heads up, and make pinpoint passes or shoot straight and do other technical offensive stuff like that, why would you waste them on the wing? They'd be your striker or your #10. They are there because all they like to do is mostly sprint around as fast as they can in a straight line up and down the pitch. And they are really good at that and not much else.
Basically-- insanely fast, passing/crossing/ vision, defense. Pick two.
I mean, it's pretty much the number one complaint of every fullbackr. "Yeah, he's really fast but his crossing sucks." And I do it, too. Nothing is more frustrating than a long, exciting run down the flanks and you get excited and then some crap cross immediately turning it into nothing. I think 95% of fullbacks and wings can't cross, either.
But I guess it is probably not that easy to be running full-steam ahead one direction and then kick the ball 90 degrees from that direction to pick out a guy's head who is probably in between two other gigantic guys.
Plus, you know... that's sort of why they are fullbacks (or wingers). If they were able to dribble with their heads up, and make pinpoint passes or shoot straight and do other technical offensive stuff like that, why would you waste them on the wing? They'd be your striker or your #10. They are there because all they like to do is mostly sprint around as fast as they can in a straight line up and down the pitch. And they are really good at that and not much else.
Basically-- insanely fast, passing/crossing/ vision, defense. Pick two.
First rule of posting something which might be provoking. Be polite and diplomatic when putting the point across.
As to FBs being able to cross the ball [post above this], in the absence of wide midfielders, it's their job to do it and the more accurate and dangerous they can be the better. Shaw did it badly, on the whole, even though the crosses looked fairly impressive, he found nobody except a defender or the opposite touchline. Bertrand's crosses are loaded with danger. They are pearls of football beauty and awful to defend. I think there is little comparison between the two in that area.
Clyne too. He has spells where he is cutting in or passing and then for a few games overlaps and crosses. Frustrates me so much because when he is doing the overlap and cross he is really good at it. Last season he stopped doing it for a run of about 10 games then all of a sudden started again and we got goals instantly from it.
I think this is the main point. Fullbacks these days have to be wingers as well. It is what the modern fullback does and the DMs become extra defenders. The 'overlaping' fullback is a key attacking asset and they can either be crossers (Clyne, Bertrand, Baines, Kolorov, Evra etc) or they can be dribblers/one two types (Zabaleta, Clyne again, Baines again.)
I suppose it depends on how good the rest of the team / squad and the tactics are to how your full backs need to be good at defending or good at attacking. Some very succesful sides club and international play wingers as full backs on purpose with the intent of attacking as a priority with the midfield providing cover. Others depend on good defensive full backs as they need that sound defence.
This is one reason why I think we will miss Clyne if he does go. When he is on form he is absolutely top notch. Great at defense (now he's replaced his studs) incredible stamina, can do the cutting in one two passing and dribbling stuff as well as getting to the byeline overlapping crossing bit. Lets hope he doesn't go and if he does that his replacement is equally as good OR we improve in another area that makes the loss less of a worry.
I think this is the main point. Fullbacks these days have to be wingers as well. It is what the modern fullback does and the DMs become extra defenders. The 'overlaping' fullback is a key attacking asset and they can either be crossers (Clyne, Bertrand, Baines, Kolorov, Evra etc) or they can be dribblers/one two types (Zabaleta, Clyne again, Baines again.)
I suppose it depends on how good the rest of the team / squad and the tactics are to how your full backs need to be good at defending or good at attacking. Some very succesful sides club and international play wingers as full backs on purpose with the intent of attacking as a priority with the midfield providing cover. Others depend on good defensive full backs as they need that sound defence.
This is one reason why I think we will miss Clyne if he does go. When he is on form he is absolutely top notch. Great at defense (now he's replaced his studs) incredible stamina, can do the cutting in one two passing and dribbling stuff as well as getting to the byeline overlapping crossing bit. Lets hope he doesn't go and if he does that his replacement is equally as good OR we improve in another area that makes the loss less of a worry.
Belgium national team for example has no good full backs, so on the last world cup they played Verthongen on the left back and Toby on the right back. They were good defensively, but going forward they were pretty much useless, they hesitated to venture in the opposition half and very rarely went on the overlap. As a consequence, they were always two opposition player defending against one winger, so it was almost impossible for player like Hazard to make any impact.