Got it in one. It's not just Tory either. There's an growing body of Labour MP's that want out, if we are pulled further towards political union with the 27 others.
Off Topic The QPR Not 606 Rolling Election Poll
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Got it in one. It's not just Tory either. There's an growing body of Labour MP's that want out, if we are pulled further towards political union with the 27 others.
The same hypocrites who slagged off Farage for years now singing the same tune, amazing what 4 million votes does to one's principals...
The history of Labour on the EU is just as twisted as the Tories. The current bunch of course have no idea of the dialectic behind it, because they are as far from being socialists as John Terry is from being a gentleman. In old Labour days there was a faction focussed on the UK only, epitomised by Tony Benn (I think Dennis Skinner is the wizened remnants of this clique) who thought we could beat the IMF, oil prices and international finance and hang on to some romantic, idealised sovereignty of Parliament by staying out of the EU, nationalising any company having problems and preventing Britons from travelling abroad by fixing stupid exchange rates. Others were much more internationalist in outlook. It's a schism going right back to Lenin (socialism in one country) and Trotsky (figurehead of the Socialist International). Except in that battle the loser (eventually) got an ice pick through his head.
The intellectual basis of these splits (international capitalism and international socialism vs Little Englanders both traditional and radical) is completely lost on our current elected representatives, because I can't think of a single one from any party who I would imagine has ever actually read any Adam Smith or Karl Marx, or even Maynard Keynes or Milton Friedman or that poisonous dwarf Hayek.
It's an incredibly old fashioned debate anyway, globalisation has already won.
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Yes, I remember Tony Benn's objections.
There are two ways of looking at the Little England argument. The obvious insular one, but then there's the point that, without the constraints of the EU, we would be free to negotiate trade agreements with the new and expanding markets like China, India, Far East and South America. In other words, we'd participate in globalisation far more thoroughly than the restrictive-practices promoting EU allows us to now.
I must admit I find the whole EU thing a little bizarre.
Surely the electorate knew at the time they were casting their ballots if they were voting for a euro-sceptic or not?
I find the idea of a referendum even stranger insofar as we vote in representatives to put forward our interests and then they defer final decisions back to people who get drip fed the information upon which to base their vote from the same people who don't use the power with which we've entrusted them. Ultimately, it leads to a situation where lay people (like myself) who don't spend hours analysing the true implications of a decision that could affect generations rather than the MPs who are meant to be doing this full time. How is it possible to arrive at the best decision except by sheer chance?
My only observation based on news would be that Cameron spent his first week after the election speaking to unmoved foreign leaders who looked stoic in the face of our requested reforms. That actually lends itself further towards a necessity to promote leaving the EU (because we're not looking likely to get many concessions). Ironically, the strongest reason to leave would be if we could govern better ourselves yet the lacking leadership qualities force us to consider it more realistically.
For parity, I don't think any other current leader could negotiate better (ie Milliband) but the bullying and manipulative Thatcher and Blair probably would have more success (whatever you say, they did have clout).
With the fairly limp nature of current politics on all sides, I will use my poorly educated vote to say stay in the EU but, because of the arbitrary nature of referendums, the media will play a bigger part than true facts (including the scaremongering likes of the Daily Mail).
Lets hope lady luck in shining on us whichever way it ends up going.
Surely the electorate knew at the time they were casting their ballots if they were voting for a euro-sceptic or not?
I find the idea of a referendum even stranger insofar as we vote in representatives to put forward our interests and then they defer final decisions back to people who get drip fed the information upon which to base their vote from the same people who don't use the power with which we've entrusted them. Ultimately, it leads to a situation where lay people (like myself) who don't spend hours analysing the true implications of a decision that could affect generations rather than the MPs who are meant to be doing this full time. How is it possible to arrive at the best decision except by sheer chance?
My only observation based on news would be that Cameron spent his first week after the election speaking to unmoved foreign leaders who looked stoic in the face of our requested reforms. That actually lends itself further towards a necessity to promote leaving the EU (because we're not looking likely to get many concessions). Ironically, the strongest reason to leave would be if we could govern better ourselves yet the lacking leadership qualities force us to consider it more realistically.
For parity, I don't think any other current leader could negotiate better (ie Milliband) but the bullying and manipulative Thatcher and Blair probably would have more success (whatever you say, they did have clout).
With the fairly limp nature of current politics on all sides, I will use my poorly educated vote to say stay in the EU but, because of the arbitrary nature of referendums, the media will play a bigger part than true facts (including the scaremongering likes of the Daily Mail).
Lets hope lady luck in shining on us whichever way it ends up going.
COL I know its the anniversary of Waterloo but at least try to suppress the animal within, would ya?
What I'd say, Matt, is that one of the great things about a referendum is that if the issue is regarded as important enough, it galvanises the electorate and encourages voters to educate themselves and feel involved in the democratic process. Just look at the independence vote in Scotland, and the huge debate and turn out. For too long, MP's of all parties have treated us like children and told us they know best. Then we see expenses scandals, cash for honours etc which breeds huge cynicism and disillusionment within the populace.
I'd say, rather than play safe and go with the status quo, why not reserve judgement and hear all the arguments? There are some clever and articulate people, politicians, economists, journalists etc, on either side of the debate. It's going to be stimulating, heated at times, at others it will seem to drag on, but overall, for anyone remotely interested in politics particularly in Europe, it will be fascinating - and incredibly important for the UK's future in a number of ways.
Please stick to your side of the bargain Chaz seeing as it was you who went to the Mods seeking such an accommodation in the first place.
Jeeez!
The Italians seem to be at the end of their tether regarding asylum seekers, where the 'help' from the rest of Europe amounts to dumping yet more of them in Italy. They are now pondering simply issuing temporary travel visas to new arrivals so they can legally go anywhere they want in Europe. Can't say I blame them. The plan to relocate 40,000 around Europe is pathetic anyway given that over 100,000 have arrived in Italy and Greece this year alone. Britain of course is refusing to take a single person. Shameful.
Cameron spinning like a top, last week no problem holding the referendum on the same day as other elections, this week a promise that this won't happen. Stuffing Farage's prediction that it would be 5 May next year.
Latest Greece crisis upon us, I hope their government stays firm and doesn't cut pensions (already cut by over 50%) again. The crisis was their own fault as their chronic inability to collect tax was exposed by the financial meltdown, but as Al Murray pointed out, Greece has defaulted on it's debts 5 times in the past, and been thrown out of a monetary union once as well, it's not as if the clowns who put the € together didn't have warning.....
On the Magna Carta have a look at the link below, one of the most remarkable men in English history. He was of course more Norman than English.....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal,_1st_Earl_of_Pembroke
Cameron spinning like a top, last week no problem holding the referendum on the same day as other elections, this week a promise that this won't happen. Stuffing Farage's prediction that it would be 5 May next year.
Latest Greece crisis upon us, I hope their government stays firm and doesn't cut pensions (already cut by over 50%) again. The crisis was their own fault as their chronic inability to collect tax was exposed by the financial meltdown, but as Al Murray pointed out, Greece has defaulted on it's debts 5 times in the past, and been thrown out of a monetary union once as well, it's not as if the clowns who put the € together didn't have warning.....
My understanding is that this is all a matter of principle for you Col, the technicalities shouldn't come into it. But to be accurate 'ever closer political union' would require Treaty change which any single member state could veto, including us. So if Europe did move closer politically we would only join it if the people had elected a government happy to do so. But in all likelihood some other country would veto it anyway, especially the ones like Ireland which require a referendum on major issues.
It's Magna Carta (1215) week as well Swords, along with the rolling remembrance of WWI (which is handy in reminding us how long it went on for). I like history and am happy for it to be celebrated, but it is beginning to make me wonder how we get any work done.
On the Magna Carta have a look at the link below, one of the most remarkable men in English history. He was of course more Norman than English.....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal,_1st_Earl_of_Pembroke
He was some man alright Stan. The Magna Carta was the founding stone of democracy. I went over to Windsor once when I was in college to check out the bits & pieces there relating to it. Nice Ale down that way too....
They're still doing the WW1 thing? Bloody hell, maybe its time to reign that one in a small bit. There's a danger such things can be a bit overcooked even if well meant.
They're still doing the WW1 thing? Bloody hell, maybe its time to reign that one in a small bit. There's a danger such things can be a bit overcooked even if well meant.
Nice twist about the Runnymede memorial to the Magna Carta is that the Yanks paid for it and built it, recognising just what you say. Just round the corner from it is a very dignified memorial to JFK.
The problem with these "asylum seekers" is that a lot of them are economic migrants, many are young men from countries like Nigeria which are not subject to major conflicts. You can't blame them for seeking a better life, but taking them all in because they risked their lives in a boat, when other hopefuls are waiting for their applications to be processed in the usual, legitimate way is not just or tenable.
For me, the EU will have to come to an arrangement with local war lords in Libya so that protected safe areas can be created and policed for those Syrians and Iraqis genuinely fleeing hostilities from ISIS. It will cost money but this is surely a good use of foreign aid. The criminal gangs bleeding these travellers dry should be run to ground and the fight against the death cult that is ISIL should be stepped up (although no British boots on ground).
Just asking a question, not having a dig. Don't be so sensitive. You're the one making waves here.Please stick to your side of the bargain Chaz seeing as it was you who went to the Mods seeking such an accommodation in the first place.
Jeeez!
And as asked before - if you have proof of my asking the mods for ANYTHING, then post it. Only you won't because you have none.
I was before, but then again I just asked a question. Didn't realise that was against the board rules, beth. It's not like I've been waiting for Col to make any comment and immediately leapt on it to make a snidey comment, is it?
Not like I prompted his response....
Not like I prompted his response....
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