Even saying that a poor manager like AVB - who failed miserably with Chelsea's arguably better squad and with Spurs (spent more but much worse squad), would do as good a job as Wenger, is a very, very debatable assertion
The Wenger Criticism Thread
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Also, 'counter productive' means nothing. To be productive means to produce something, ie win the big trophies. Right now we 'produce' nothing because we don't win (or even challenge for) the big trophies. And it doesn't look like changing with AW in charge so how could we become any less productive with someone in charge? You can't decrease productivity below 0 which is where we are now.
If we had a spate of hirings and firings we'd still be nil productive. So we'd maintain productivity status quo.
I really don't care about a lot of things. I don't care if we lose Wenger. I don't care who we hire. I don't care who we sign. I don't care who we sell. What I do care about is that Arsenal show some vague semblance of progress, however slow, on the pitch and that we can play vaguely decent football. Right now we're just stagnant. Maintaining that is nothing to be satisfied with. Worried about 'moving backwards' - I mean, me, so what? If a fan is so worried about moving backwards for a year or two or three, then stop supporting Arsenal and support a quick fix team like City or Chelsea.
All I want is progress. A sign that someone cares enough to try something new in order to improve themselves and the team. But the board were happy to let stagnation be maintained when they offered AW a new contract. So now we stagnate in relative patience until they have the balls to try something different.
The board are clinging to an old, battered Nokia 3210 because they're too scared of the pitfalls that come with a smartphone.
If we had a spate of hirings and firings we'd still be nil productive. So we'd maintain productivity status quo.
I really don't care about a lot of things. I don't care if we lose Wenger. I don't care who we hire. I don't care who we sign. I don't care who we sell. What I do care about is that Arsenal show some vague semblance of progress, however slow, on the pitch and that we can play vaguely decent football. Right now we're just stagnant. Maintaining that is nothing to be satisfied with. Worried about 'moving backwards' - I mean, me, so what? If a fan is so worried about moving backwards for a year or two or three, then stop supporting Arsenal and support a quick fix team like City or Chelsea.
All I want is progress. A sign that someone cares enough to try something new in order to improve themselves and the team. But the board were happy to let stagnation be maintained when they offered AW a new contract. So now we stagnate in relative patience until they have the balls to try something different.
The board are clinging to an old, battered Nokia 3210 because they're too scared of the pitfalls that come with a smartphone.
Maybe. But he had a 47.5% win rate with them. Once he was sacked they still only won 5 of their last 11 league games. And their squad back in 2011/12 was no better than ours now. Mediocre midfield, ageing strike-force with a misfiring Torres. A solid defence and the new signing of Juan Mata were their strengths. They finished with 64 points from 38 games (so 1.68 points per game).
Right now Wenger is on 1.55 points per game with a win rate of 39% in 2014/15.
Even at Spurs AVB (whlie heavily relying on Bale) had a win rate of 55%. And did Spurs rely any more on Bale than we are on Sanchez right now? Was that 55% win rate due to AVB or Bale? Is our win rate being as high as 39% right now due to Wenger or Sanchez?
Sure, AW has been an incredible manager in the past. And AVB has never got close to licking AW's boots. But right now AW is long past it.
I think it's a bit skewed to compare one managers normal standard across 2 of his biggest jobs, to the worst patch Wenger has experienced, which has gone on for 3 months.
AW is a much better manager than AVB, regardless of our feeling on either
AW is a much better manager than AVB, regardless of our feeling on either
Quite possibly. But then again, AW is not going to get any better. He is at his level. He's not young and improving and keen to learn. So why not compare his current form to that of AVBs?
You honestly believe that right now AW is much better manager than AVB? What evidence is there of that? It's a moot point anyway because making direct comparisons will never be fair because two managers can't possibly manage the same players against the same opposition. But I don't see how AVB is any worse than AW.
You started making the comparisons and have just made a comparison in the same sentence as saying they are unfair?
The main question is Wenger doing well enough with the resources and squad that is available to him? The problem that so many of us Arsenal fans seem to get into is we feel the need to talk about the financial/business side of things that we let it get in the way of the actual footballing side of things. Wenger needs to go back to the footballing side as do we in discussions. But understandably, due to his long barren run, it has led us supporters to properly question Wenger footballing wise. Since the new stadium and all the financial constraints he's had to go through, he seems to have lost that cutting edge he once had on the pitch. There's no innovation, no pragmatism and he frankly comes across as not knowing what to do about it. He just can't seem to compete with the best anymore. But one thing he's done is maintained things, which in some ways has hurt him more by making him overly comfortable without finding a solution to it all.
The reason I said it was unfair to compare a large portion of AVB's career with 3 months of Wengers is because it gives a distorted view. If you did that you could make a case for Sam Allardyce being one of the best attacking managers in the country, if not the world - as for the last 3 months West Ham have been playing very well and scoring goals.
Plus the time frames for statistical analysis should be equal for a more accurate result. It's like looking at the worst 2 weeks Fegie ever had as a manager, and then comparing it with an average manager's full season and saying that manager is better as he had a better win percentage.
And personally I don't think you can claim definitely that Wenger won't improve, as he has more resources and different players, playing in a slightly different environment. Just as I can't claim he definitely will improve.
Plus the time frames for statistical analysis should be equal for a more accurate result. It's like looking at the worst 2 weeks Fegie ever had as a manager, and then comparing it with an average manager's full season and saying that manager is better as he had a better win percentage.
And personally I don't think you can claim definitely that Wenger won't improve, as he has more resources and different players, playing in a slightly different environment. Just as I can't claim he definitely will improve.
This comment is actually stupid.
It is filled with hate for the current manager and is soo illogical its embarrassing.
another emotion fueled comment based soley on hate for the manager. Is the season over already?
are we out of all competitions already?
Yeah Wenger is not doing the best job at present but people really need to get a grip.
Yeah, vague comparisons. Truly fair comparisons are impossible. Vague comparisons based on nothing more than opinion are what this forum is built on though
Get over yourself Mr Grumpy and your blind love for a manager.
I support Arsenal, not Arsene.
Winning the league --> unlikely to the point of being impossible
Winning the CL --> unlikely to the point of being impossible
Winning the league cup --> already failed
Winning the FA Cup --> possibly
So in a way... yes... our season is almost all gone apart from playing for an FA cup which is not really the trophy we are aspiring to get our hands on.
Where has he shown any overly positive statement about Wenger in the 2 posts above? Let alone demonstrated blind love? Unless it's by saying 'he's not doing the best job at present but'
it's guys like Cini who just get too emotional and start to make stuff up to suit their argument instead of looking at the facts. thats why so many 'discussions' turn into a slug fest.
Good job you're here with your soothing and platonic comments to nip arguments in the bud then
Duly noted. I'll use your posts as an example of not getting emotional, never making stuff up to suit an argument and just sticking to facts:
Good to see you stick to your own rules when you post
Good job you're here with your soothing and platonic comments to nip arguments in the bud then
Duly noted. I'll use your posts as an example of not getting emotional, never making stuff up to suit an argument and just sticking to facts:
Good to see you stick to your own rules when you post
Good to see you are taking my advice cini. Enjoy that beer in hand son
wait a minute... was that sarcasm you were attempting before? awww cini im disappointed now.
There I was thinking i'd turned you around
oh well, as you were mate!