Scottish Independence

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Leo - There is no one state in America which has 85% of its population ! Such a situation does not exist where, in a federal structure, the populations are so uneven as in the UK. the biggest state in Germany (by population not size) is Nordrheinwestphalen with about 20% of the German population. The reason is that a parliament representing 85 % of a country would become too powerfull a competition to the main government (ie. Westminster) - it would also be very expensive. I too agree with PR - however it is a much more expensive political system than what you presently have. Under PR parties have to channel their resources to cover all available seats ie. all votes are equally important. At the moment parties plough all of their resources into so called target seats and can,more or less, forget the others. Under a PR system the Green Party in England would have to contest all seats in the country, and would have to spread their financial resources over the whole country - rather than concentrating their election budget (about 170,000 pounds) on Brighton - which they did successfully at the last election. PR would increase costs for the parties, and, unfortunately also the role of sponsors - to give you a comparison, the election budget of the German Green Party at our last elections here was 4 million Euros.

Cologne - you are so wrong - England has a population roughly ten times Scotlands California has a population 66 times Wyoming - 38million to 582 thousand.
Population has nothing to do with federal structures.

Each country looks after its own affairs without the interference of the others - just as Scotland wants now. England's 50 million plus would have their own parliament. That would not impact on Scotland's 5 million

It is only when you then get to the federal matters - defence etc that a preponderence of English MPs could be said to dominate - but that is called the UK Parliament now. So does not affect anything
Please do not tell me you do not want a fair PR system because it costs a little more. Shave 1% off defence - there its all paid for and the rest.
The overall cost would not be so much more than now. Essentially you would have exactly what you do now but then maybe have a Federal Assembly - perhaps in the North West of England to give it geographic proximity to Wales, Ireland and Scotland and distance it from Westminster which would be English. that Assembly could be composed of an agreed number of representatives of each nation - much like the EU is now. They would deal with a select few affairs and so would not need to meet all the time. But these are details - the principle is what counts and should be put in place.
 
Cologne - you are so wrong - England has a population roughly ten times Scotlands California has a population 66 times Wyoming - 38million to 582 thousand.
Population has nothing to do with federal structures.

Each country looks after its own affairs without the interference of the others - just as Scotland wants now. England's 50 million plus would have their own parliament. That would not impact on Scotland's 5 million

It is only when you then get to the federal matters - defence etc that a preponderence of English MPs could be said to dominate - but that is called the UK Parliament now. So does not affect anything
Please do not tell me you do not want a fair PR system because it costs a little more. Shave 1% off defence - there its all paid for and the rest.
The overall cost would not be so much more than now. Essentially you would have exactly what you do now but then maybe have a Federal Assembly - perhaps in the North West of England to give it geographic proximity to Wales, Ireland and Scotland and distance it from Westminster which would be English. that Assembly could be composed of an agreed number of representatives of each nation - much like the EU is now. They would deal with a select few affairs and so would not need to meet all the time. But these are details - the principle is what counts and should be put in place.

Leo, what I was trying to say was that the biggest unit - be it California, England or wherever should not be so large in comparison to the whole. California cannot dominate US politics any more than Texas can. The point is that an English parliament, because of it's size, would actually be able to do just that - which in addition to the powers of 85% of Westminster MPs would be too much concentration of power for my liking. What do you have against regional assemblies which would, eventually, have the same powers as the Scottish assembly ? The extra costs which I was talking about are not those of the state and cannot be relocated from anywhere - they would be extra costs for the parties themselves, which if not covered by membership fees, would lead to a rise in the sponsorship of political parties, which is hardly in the interests of democracy. If you bring in a system of PR then smaller parties, like the Greens, are faced with the problem of funding election campaigns over much wider areas (every constituency) which they cannot do as yet.
 
Leo, what I was trying to say was that the biggest unit - be it California, England or wherever should not be so large in comparison to the whole. California cannot dominate US politics any more than Texas can. The point is that an English parliament, because of it's size, would actually be able to do just that - which in addition to the powers of 85% of Westminster MPs would be too much concentration of power for my liking. What do you have against regional assemblies which would, eventually, have the same powers as the Scottish assembly ? The extra costs which I was talking about are not those of the state and cannot be relocated from anywhere - they would be extra costs for the parties themselves, which if not covered by membership fees, would lead to a rise in the sponsorship of political parties, which is hardly in the interests of democracy. If you bring in a system of PR then smaller parties, like the Greens, are faced with the problem of funding election campaigns over much wider areas (every constituency) which they cannot do as yet.

OK - so you can see there is no problem in terms of population with the 4 "states" - yes? Each state is self governing on matters that need not involve the UK as a whole. It does not matter at all how big each is as it does not affect the other. California has laws for its 38 million and Wyoming has laws for its half a million. Absolutely no conflict.

You cannot have an issue about the UK "federal" side of the equation either as it is what we have now - a UK Parliament.

So it works.

However my proposal would have the "federal" Parliament (for issues involving all 4 nations like foreign affairs and defense) being totally different and much cheaper. It would have something like 50 English representatvies, 25 Scottish, 15 Welsh and 10 Irish - which means that although England dominates it does not dominate as much as it does now. After all 53 out 63 million has a right to a large say. I would abolish the House of Lords altogether - massive saving. ON foreign and defense issues you would hope that party lines and national lines would not throw up such enormous differences as on the likes of welfare and health.

I hvae nothing against devolving powers within England as it is so large - but would aim to replace the council tier with regional assemblies for issue sthat currently are council matters. Need to think that through a little more htough. I wnat England to retain an identity though - and not to simply be split up.
 
OK - so you can see there is no problem in terms of population with the 4 "states" - yes? Each state is self governing on matters that need not involve the UK as a whole. It does not matter at all how big each is as it does not affect the other. California has laws for its 38 million and Wyoming has laws for its half a million. Absolutely no conflict.

You cannot have an issue about the UK "federal" side of the equation either as it is what we have now - a UK Parliament.

So it works.

However my proposal would have the "federal" Parliament (for issues involving all 4 nations like foreign affairs and defense) being totally different and much cheaper. It would have something like 50 English representatvies, 25 Scottish, 15 Welsh and 10 Irish - which means that although England dominates it does not dominate as much as it does now. After all 53 out 63 million has a right to a large say. I would abolish the House of Lords altogether - massive saving. ON foreign and defense issues you would hope that party lines and national lines would not throw up such enormous differences as on the likes of welfare and health.

I hvae nothing against devolving powers within England as it is so large - but would aim to replace the council tier with regional assemblies for issue sthat currently are council matters. Need to think that through a little more htough. I wnat England to retain an identity though - and not to simply be split up.

I think Leo that it does not matter much in which way you do it - the fundamental goal is decentralization, both of political and economic power away from London. Federalism started out with the idea of trying to prevent concentrations of power - this is why the Americans made Washington their capital. The same principle was later applied to Germany (which had been centralized under Hitler) with Bonn as its capital. If you look at Germany now it is the very model of decentralization. Berlin is technically the capital but Frankfurt is the capital for banking and communications, the two most successfull Cities per capita are Hamburg and Stuttgart, the capital for beer and football is Munich and the city with the most tourists is Cologne (because of our big lump of old stone in the middle) - Cologne is also the Grufti capital of Germany and has the most Nuns ! Surprisingly to many Brits (who think that all Germans are basically the same) the Germans still think very regionally - don't forget Prussia and Bavaria disappeared only in 1878. The most local patriotism is, however, found here in Cologne where it is a criminal offence to drink any beer not made here, or to support any other football team, or to speak any form of intelligable German whatsoever ( Kolsch is like Scouse is to normal English).
 
I think Leo that it does not matter much in which way you do it - the fundamental goal is decentralization, both of political and economic power away from London. Federalism started out with the idea of trying to prevent concentrations of power - this is why the Americans made Washington their capital. The same principle was later applied to Germany (which had been centralized under Hitler) with Bonn as its capital. If you look at Germany now it is the very model of decentralization. Berlin is technically the capital but Frankfurt is the capital for banking and communications, the two most successfull Cities per capita are Hamburg and Stuttgart, the capital for beer and football is Munich and the city with the most tourists is Cologne (because of our big lump of old stone in the middle) - Cologne is also the Grufti capital of Germany and has the most Nuns ! Surprisingly to many Brits (who think that all Germans are basically the same) the Germans still think very regionally - don't forget Prussia and Bavaria disappeared only in 1878. The most local patriotism is, however, found here in Cologne where it is a criminal offence to drink any beer not made here, or to support any other football team, or to speak any form of intelligable German whatsoever ( Kolsch is like Scouse is to normal English).

:)

I am not a great fan of decentralisation - the smaller the unit the easier it is for determined activists to bully their way to power. I want to see England have what Scotland, Wales and Ireland have - the ability to have votes on English matters without the interfernece of people who are not affected by those matters. I do not then mind some form or regional government below that to replace the haphazard structure we have now.

Oh - and Bonn became the capital as Berlin was in the middle of Communist East Germany - not a very practical place for a capital - it returned to its former status upon unification. In Berlin's absence other cities grabbed power.
 
:)

I am not a great fan of decentralisation - the smaller the unit the easier it is for determined activists to bully their way to power. I want to see England have what Scotland, Wales and Ireland have - the ability to have votes on English matters without the interfernece of people who are not affected by those matters. I do not then mind some form or regional government below that to replace the haphazard structure we have now.

Oh - and Bonn became the capital as Berlin was in the middle of Communist East Germany - not a very practical place for a capital - it returned to its former status upon unification. In Berlin's absence other cities grabbed power.

For me the attraction of decentralization is that I want a system in which decisions are made as close to those affected by them as possible - this is for me an essential of democracy because people can be more easily held accountable for their actions. England cannot help it's history in as much as London has been the capital for about a thousand years and is 8 times bigger than the next largest City - so a situation like in Germany is not possible. Also the central role of London has been strengthened since England ripped its industrial heart out in the 80s. However, the regions of England need to be strengthened. Need to be able to re establish themselves as self confident, vibrant centres which are not permanently looking to London for initiative - this can only come through some sort of extension of powers of self determination.

By the way Bonn was chosen in 1946 against Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich as capital of the former West Germany. It was chosen for the same reasons as Washington was chosen in America (ie. to prevent one city from becoming too powerfull). Had Frankfurt been chosen (which was the first choice because of its central position) I doubt very much if Berlin would be capital now.
 
For me the attraction of decentralization is that I want a system in which decisions are made as close to those affected by them as possible - this is for me an essential of democracy because people can be more easily held accountable for their actions. England cannot help it's history in as much as London has been the capital for about a thousand years and is 8 times bigger than the next largest City - so a situation like in Germany is not possible. Also the central role of London has been strengthened since England ripped its industrial heart out in the 80s. However, the regions of England need to be strengthened. Need to be able to re establish themselves as self confident, vibrant centres which are not permanently looking to London for initiative - this can only come through some sort of extension of powers of self determination.

By the way Bonn was chosen in 1946 against Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich as capital of the former West Germany. It was chosen for the same reasons as Washington was chosen in America (ie. to prevent one city from becoming too powerfull). Had Frankfurt been chosen (which was the first choice because of its central position) I doubt very much if Berlin would be capital now.

That is all very well but how many decisions are really local? Do you want roads to be organised on a local basis? How would you feel about different regions making different NHS decisions - you get more postcode lottery. No - England is a small but populous country and there is not much room for having everyone make local rules and regulations. It sounds very nice but is not practical.
 

Grow up

No - we know it will never be over. The left never gives up - but they delude themselves that they can gain power. Kinnock, Foot, Benn etc - never realised that the majority of people in these islands are conservative with a small "c". That is just another rant by a disgruntled loser. Do you know what - you lost - only 1.6m of over 5m Scots fell for the propaganda. The UK will not grant Scotland another referendu for a generation - in our lifetime according to Salmond. By then the oil will certainly be well diminished and the left will find it even harder to con the good people of Scotland.

Keep telling everyone it was the fault of the over 65s yes the people with most experience of life, those less easily conned by smooth undeliverable promises. Your 20 year olds will soon buy their own houses and realise that the UK is a great place to live. Scotland can always have its proud tradition within the UK

You lost once and for all - face it - accept it and go back to your own board. We are bored with this one now - the debate has moved on to what England, Wales and Northern Ireland need.
 
Grow up

No - we know it will never be over. The left never gives up - but they delude themselves that they can gain power. Kinnock, Foot, Benn etc - never realised that the majority of people in these islands are conservative with a small "c". That is just another rant by a disgruntled loser. Do you know what - you lost - only 1.6m of over 5m Scots fell for the propaganda. The UK will not grant Scotland another referendu for a generation - in our lifetime according to Salmond. By then the oil will certainly be well diminished and the left will find it even harder to con the good people of Scotland.

Keep telling everyone it was the fault of the over 65s yes the people with most experience of life, those less easily conned by smooth undeliverable promises. Your 20 year olds will soon buy their own houses and realise that the UK is a great place to live. Scotland can always have its proud tradition within the UK

You lost once and for all - face it - accept it and go back to your own board. We are bored with this one now - the debate has moved on to what England, Wales and Northern Ireland need.

The Watford board spokesman, <laugh>
 
<party><party><party>

Scottish independence
Irvine Welsh: this glorious failure could yet be Scotland's finest hour
Forget Bannockburn or the Scottish Enlightenment, the Scots have reinvented and re-established the idea of true democracy




Irvine Welsh
The Guardian, Saturday 20 September 2014


Scottish Referendum Vote
Irvine Welsh: 'The Scots have shown the western world that the corporate-led, neo-liberal model for the development of this planet has a limited appeal.'

They came out in their droves, in a last-ditch, stoic defence of the union, to staunch the seemingly irresistible tide towards independence. The no voters should take a bow: they delivered the UK establishment a reprieve the enervated, confused and weak campaign of their masters certainly didn't deserve. They have bought time for the union, and many of them, people who will habitually support the status quo at almost any cost, will simply be relieved. Others in this disparate group, who want change, but decided to give the establishment one more chance, will be keenly looking south to see what is on offer. The Westminster parties now have to look closely at who the no voters are, especially the devo max ones they made the late pitch for. Many of them must now be at the limits of their patience, and they won't be remaining silently in that camp after any more fudges and broken promises.

At the start of the campaign, a narrow win for the political-class-led no would have been a nightmare result for the establishment. They originally expected a rout &#8211; the rationale behind Cameron leaving devo max off the ballot paper, before he had a humiliating rush north, in realisation that his abiding political legacy might be the end of the union.

The vibrant and euphoric yes movement, which, during the debate, evolved from a small base to come within a whisker of a sensational victory, will be massively disappointed that they didn't manage to get it done.

They will have to cool their ardour a while longer, although anybody believing they'll stop now is indulging in wishful thinking. Why would they? The process and the subsequent debate, which they won handsomely, took support for independence from around 30% to 45% and heading north. It's now established as the compelling narrative of the post-devolution generation, while no dominates only in a declining constituency of elderly voters. Yes may have lost this battle, but the war is being won.

There was much talk of how ineffective the no campaign was. In some ways this is unfair: you can only go with what you've got and they simply weren't packing much heat. The union they strove to protect was based on industry and empire and the esprit de corps from both world wars, and you can't maintain a political relationship on declining historical sentiment alone. With the big, inclusive postwar building blocks of the welfare state and the NHS being ripped apart by both major parties there's zero currency in campaigning on that, especially as they're only being preserved in Scotland by the devolved parliament. The boast of using oil revenues to fund privatisation projects and bail out bankers for their avarice and incompetence is never going to be a vote winner. Going negative was the only option.

The referendum was a disaster for Cameron personally, who almost lost the union. The Tories, with enough self-awareness to realise how detested they are in Scotland, stood aside to let Labour run the show on the basis they could deliver a convincing no vote. But for Labour, the outcome was at least as bad; when the dust settles they will be seen, probably on both sides of the border, to have used their power and influence against the aspiration towards democracy. Labour voters caught this ugly whiff, the number of them supporting independence doubling in a month from 17% to 35%. In the mid-term, the leadership may have simply acted as recruiting sergeants for the SNP.

As Cameron was at first absent and uninterested, then finally fearful, so Miliband looked just as ineffective and totally lost during this campaign. He became a figure of contempt in Scotland: Labour leaders have generally needed a period in office in order to achieve that distinction.

As social media came of age in a political campaign in these islands, the rest of the establishment will be for ever tarnished in the eyes of a generation of Scots. The senior officials of banks and supermarkets dancing to Whitehall's tune, their nonsense disseminated by the London press, was not unexpected, but the BBC extensively answered any questions about their role in a post-independent Scotland.

No sleep will be lost by the elites over that; the reason that this is such a bad result for the establishment is that it compels action; the narrow no decision, in tandem with the massive surge of momentum towards yes, leaves the issue unresolved. Though defeated in the poll, the independence movement emerged far stronger &#8211; from the narrow concern of a bourgeois civic nationalist party, to a righteous, vibrant, big-tent, pro-democracy movement. The referendum galvanised and excited Scots in a way that no UK-wide election has done. Like it or not, unless they come up with a winning devo max settlement, every general election in Scotland will now be dominated by the independence issue.

Scotland's post-devolution generation is a different breed to their predecessors; they've been building a new state in their imagination, from the basis of a limited but tangible parliament in Edinburgh. They see the possibilities in full statehood, and came from nowhere to deal a body blow to Britain's tired and out-of-touch elites. The smartest of them have always seen independence as a process, not an event, and having come so unexpectedly close, they won't be going into a depressive hungover funk. They'll be keen for a rematch, and they'll get it soon.

This vote ensures that Scotland will remain central on the UK agenda. The union was on death row and the no vote earned it a stay of execution; the establishment parties are now in the process of organising their appeal. That has to involve real decentralisation of power and an end to regional inequities. Do the political classes have the stomach and the spine for this? A devo max that gives Scotland the power to raise taxes to pay for welfare programmes, but not reduce them by opting out of Trident and other defence spending, while maintaining the oil flow south of the border, without even an investment or poverty alleviation fund, is a sham, especially as it was denied at the ballot box. It may be perceived as setting up the Scottish parliament to fail, and undermining devolution.

However, it's probably the case that anything more than that would be unlikely to be palatable to the major parties or the broader UK electorate. The biggest problem for the Westminster elites now is not just to decide what to do about Scotland but, crucially, to do it without antagonising English people &#8211; who might justly feel that the tail of 10% is now starting to wag the dog of the rest of the UK.

The fact is that the majority of the 25 million who live in London and the south-east are perfectly fine with the bulk of tax pounds (to say nothing of the oil revenues) being spent on government, infrastructure and showcase projects in the capital &#8211; why wouldn't they be? The problem is that in a unitary, centralised state, the decision-making and civic wealth of the nation &#8211; and therefore practically all the large-scale private investment &#8211; lies in that region.

So how can you square the two? Scots are showing they won't go on committing their taxes or oil monies to building a London super-state on the global highway for the transnational rich, particularly when it's becoming unaffordable to their Cockney comrades, driving them out of their own city to the M25 satellites.

English nationalism has always been the elephant in the room and it seems likely that demands made from north of the border will precipitate a reaction from the south, and encourage further political polarisation. Be careful of what you wish for was a taunt by Better Together, warning Scots of the potential hassles &#8211; real and fantasised &#8211; of extrication from the union. Now they have that headache, as they seek to work out how they can hold this mess together.

The major parties, particularly Labour, a poll- and press-conscious, focus group-driven concern, obsessed with the centrist support of middle England, may find that trying to reconcile the Scots aspiration to autonomy with the maintenance of a unitary, centralised UK state, is an impossible task. If Labour can't decentralise and provide autonomy to their own party in Scotland, it's hard to see how they can even start to do it for the UK. Scottish independence, with the party campaigning cheek by jowl alongside the Conservatives, provided more (and probably decisive) evidence for Labour voters just how much their party has been co-opted by the establishment. Even more of them will be disinclined to pass on the now traditional 'put up and shut up' to 'keep the Tories out' offer. In the English Labour marginal constituencies, low turnouts could hurt them. The benefactors south of the border may be the latest xenophobic pack of establishment mules, Ukip, a BNP-with-standard-grades affair.

With the clear aim of removing the UK from Europe, Labour voters might reason that at least they know what they are voting for with this particular devil.

The Liberal Democrats and some on the left have been flirting with a federal solution to maintain the UK. But this back-of-a-cigarette-packet desperation only betrays the same top-down establishment thinking. There has to be some kind of demand from the people; imposing an unwanted parliament in Norwich on East Anglian folks would be as undemocratic as taking away the Scots one in Edinburgh. It seems more sensible and more painless just to accept that the UK is not politically homogenous and let its constituent parts find their own paths up the mountain. This is the quandary for the establishment to sort out and it's one that would tax bigger and more tolerant minds than their own.

Back in Scotland, many (including quite a few in the no camp) have become disenchanted by the negative, desperate campaign orchestrated from Westminster, and the establishment in general, particularly the way business and media interests have been nakedly shown to collude against democracy. If the yes campaign excited Scots to the possibilities of people power, the opposition one showed the political classes, their establishment masters and metropolitan groupies in the most cynical, opportunistic light. From the empty, manipulative celebrity "love-bombing" to the crass threats and smears issued by the press, around half of Scotland might now feel as if it has been classified as the "enemy within", that stock designation for all those who resist the dictates of the elites' centralised power.

The yes movement hit such heights because the UK state was seen as failed; antiquated, hierarchical, centralist, discriminatory, out of touch and acting against the people. This election will have done nothing to diminish that impression. Against this shabbiness the Scots struck a blow for democracy, with an unprecedented 97% voter registration for an election the establishment wearily declared nobody wanted. It turns out that it was the only one people wanted. Whether this Scottish assertiveness kickstarts an unlikely UK-wide reform (unwanted in most of the English regions); or wearies southerners and precipitates a reaction to get rid of them; or the Scots, through the ballot box at general elections, decide to go the whole hog of their own accord; the old imperialist-based union is bust.

The Scots, so often a regarded as a thrawn tribe with their best years behind them, have shown the western world that the corporate-led, neo-liberal model for the development of this planet, through G7 'sphere of influence' states on bloated military budgets, has a limited appeal.

This country, when it was ever known on the global stage under the union, was associated with tragedy, in terrible events like Lockerbie and Dunblane; it's now synonymous with real people power. Forget Bannockburn or the Scottish Enlightenment, the Scots have just reinvented and re-established the idea of true democracy. This &#8211; one more &#8211; glorious failure might also, paradoxically, be their finest hour.
.
 
The Watford board spokesman, <laugh>

Just my opinion and similar to most other posters on here I think you will find. After all this is a Watford board.

Second phase. <ok>

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/19/wipe-your-eyes-on-your-feet/


Don't bother Leonardo it's way beyond your understanding. <ok>


I'm sorry if you find it challenging. Seems rather elementary to me. Regurgitated left wing dogma as everything you have posted has been. You are a very poor loser - must be hard to know you will never see your dream of a left wing independent Scotland. :) ... and you would have us believe you are quite well off with your own business and properties in England and Scotland. Champagne socialist springs to mind.
 
Bored with you now Spurf so you can go on as long as you like - this is my last communication with you. Loser