The Eclipse
- Thread starter King Shergar
- Start date
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Fulkes.....I know exactly what you mean, these pacemakers are a joke, because they are not running to make the race an honest gallop, they are running purely in the interests of AOBs best hopes, Duke Of Marmalade's Juddmonte win was the worst case of this. Not that it made any difference to the result of the Irish Derby yesterday, but you could see the AOB horses were riding as a team, turning in they were all challenging in a line across the track, so if Carlton House had been good enough he would have had to go the long way round. The team tactics are not allowed, yet when you allow trainers like AOB to have 4 or 5 runners in some races, there always likely to run as a team.
Maybe they could actually have horses who are pacemakers and there only job is to make the pace nothing else, they could then pull over with say 3 or 4 furlongs to go. Last years Arc was a joke aswell, because the pacemakers run out of gas turning into the homestraight and they end up sinking back through the pack which impeded alot of the field
Maybe they could actually have horses who are pacemakers and there only job is to make the pace nothing else, they could then pull over with say 3 or 4 furlongs to go. Last years Arc was a joke aswell, because the pacemakers run out of gas turning into the homestraight and they end up sinking back through the pack which impeded alot of the field
Beef....No I haven't had a bet yet, that would explain why the price has shortened up, he was 13/8 on oddschecker when I did this article, he will drift out abit before the day, I reckon atleast 6/4 will be available between now and Saturday at some point
I remember when Goldophin did exactly that in the Irish Champion Stakes the only way they could beat Galileo
I'd love to see a replay of Galileo's first defeat, it was so long ago I can barely remember it. Fantastic Light was a pretty useful horse though so it was no shame losing to him, and whilst Galileo has proved to be a great sire, he wasn't unbeatable on the racecourse, I seem to recall he was well beaten in the BC classic when Tiznow narrowly got the better of Giants Causeway
Shergy, I've found film of the Fantastic Light win over Galileo. I've heard a lot of talk about how the pace maker gave the race to Fantastic Light. FL got the inside run while Kinane went three deep. But Mick had committed the horse before the turn. In the straight, Galileo had every chance to pick up the winner. In fact FL was going marginally the better in the last 50 yards.
http://www.godolphin.com/Video.aspx?id=109
http://www.godolphin.com/Video.aspx?id=109
i was just making the point tat certain people on here are blatantly accusing the largest breeding operation in the world of cheating they are making out that aiden instructs his jockeys to go 3 wide around the track so everything has to go 4 wide that is rubbish they are all challenging to win the race what shall we do have them in single file if your gonna try and take the lead you have to go round the other horse.
Galielo and Fantastic Light...a most memorable race. I remember I was a massive Galileo fan and had 50 quid on to win 20 (2/5)....
However there should not have been such a difference in their price as Galileo won the KG by a length or just over, yet there was a turn around in the weights in favour of Fantastic Light which was always going to bring them closer. Fantastic Light was a better 10 furlong horse anyways, as just being touched off in Breeders Cup by the mighty Tiznow showed.
Also I remember Grandera nailing Hawk Wing on the line...The Irish Champion Stakes often produces these thrillers! I still remember the reception Sea the Stars got when he came back in after having laughed at Fame and Glory and Mastercraftsman...that was a very very nice day
However there should not have been such a difference in their price as Galileo won the KG by a length or just over, yet there was a turn around in the weights in favour of Fantastic Light which was always going to bring them closer. Fantastic Light was a better 10 furlong horse anyways, as just being touched off in Breeders Cup by the mighty Tiznow showed.
Also I remember Grandera nailing Hawk Wing on the line...The Irish Champion Stakes often produces these thrillers! I still remember the reception Sea the Stars got when he came back in after having laughed at Fame and Glory and Mastercraftsman...that was a very very nice day
Not quite sure how a thread about the Eclipse managed to get onto the topic of Aidan O’Brien running multiple horses tactically, but obviously I watched a different race on Sunday. The only way Carlton House would have won is if the first three had not been in the race. He was not good enough, had every chance and did not stay. The Queen’s racing manager as good as admitted that by saying that the horse ran “flat” and will be dropped back to ten furlongs.
Introducing professional pacemakers is not a workable idea. There would have to be an international agreement because it would be useless doing it in just one country and what about those horses, such as the Derby winner Reference Point, that want to lead.
Whilst it sounds very plausible to say that they could just pull aside with three furlongs to go that could lead to interference (intentional or otherwise) and would completely destroy the rule about horses being allowed to run on their merits. I am sure we can all think of instances where alleged pacemakers have bolted off in front and not come back. How would the betting work?
Introducing professional pacemakers is not a workable idea. There would have to be an international agreement because it would be useless doing it in just one country and what about those horses, such as the Derby winner Reference Point, that want to lead.
Whilst it sounds very plausible to say that they could just pull aside with three furlongs to go that could lead to interference (intentional or otherwise) and would completely destroy the rule about horses being allowed to run on their merits. I am sure we can all think of instances where alleged pacemakers have bolted off in front and not come back. How would the betting work?
Fantastic Light won the Breeder's Cup Turf I thought, it was Sakhee who was just beaten by Tiznow in the Classic that year (and Giant's Causeway was beaten by Tiznow the year before)
also the idea of a trainer only allowed to have say 1 runner per race what to stop a owner having 6 horses with 6b different trainers runing in the same race also what about a trainer who doesn't train for a breeding operation lie coolmore or Goldophin lets say micheal Bell he happens to have in his yard 2 very talented 3 yr old colts all who he thinks have excellent chances in the derby and they are all owned by different people what you telling these people sorry only one of them horses can run.So the trainer has to pick which one it would never work.
I quite like the idea of only two horses from the same connections being allowed to compete, in Group 1 races anyway, but it is not feasable and would never happen.
Although it does throw up lots of other issues for example the number of runners. It's easy to criticise AOB for seemingly to enter all his horses in all major races but in some cases the fields would be down to 3 or 4 runners if he didn't.
As for it influencing the results of races I feel it is purely up to the jockey and trainer of the other horses to combat any tactics employed by Coolmore or Godolphin or whoever. I firmly believe if the horse is good enough it should win 9 times out of 10.
Although it does throw up lots of other issues for example the number of runners. It's easy to criticise AOB for seemingly to enter all his horses in all major races but in some cases the fields would be down to 3 or 4 runners if he didn't.
As for it influencing the results of races I feel it is purely up to the jockey and trainer of the other horses to combat any tactics employed by Coolmore or Godolphin or whoever. I firmly believe if the horse is good enough it should win 9 times out of 10.
surely o brein is not going to run alll 4?confront is in it for workforce,if o brien uses one then surely this is going to play into workforces favour?i imagine he might run only cape blanco with SYT ,thye could ignore confront,and cape blanco could lead the main chasing pack giving o brien a decent chance to win it if SYT doesnt fire.
I agree with the general feeling, that trainers can't be limited to the number of entrants per race. But Jumpers, there is another side to the point that you made about races being down to 3 or 4 runners if AOB didn't go in mob handed. Those AOB runners are not exactly duds, actually they often have the ability to fill a place. So I can see trainers with only a slim chance, being scared off by AOB numbers. But if AOB wasn't allowed the the runners, you might see a lot of other trainers willing to risk the entry fee.
In the last three years, Aidan O’Brien has provided almost half of the runners in the Derby without success. When they do not have a stand-out candidate, Ballydoyle just let them all take their chance. They have had a couple that have effectively acted as pacemakers in that they have tried to make all.
As Jumpers stated, if there was a limit to how many could enter most of the Group 1 events would either be three or four runner non-events or they would be stuffed with Group 3/Listed class horses taking a chance because there is big place money.
With regard to Saturday’s Eclipse, it is difficult to see eight going to post so folks backing outside the big two each-way are going to need one or both of them to run eight or ten pounds below form to get a return.
For the record – Breeders’ Cup Classic: 2000 Tiznow beat Giant’s Causeway; 2001 Tiznow beat Sakhee.
As Jumpers stated, if there was a limit to how many could enter most of the Group 1 events would either be three or four runner non-events or they would be stuffed with Group 3/Listed class horses taking a chance because there is big place money.
With regard to Saturday’s Eclipse, it is difficult to see eight going to post so folks backing outside the big two each-way are going to need one or both of them to run eight or ten pounds below form to get a return.
For the record – Breeders’ Cup Classic: 2000 Tiznow beat Giant’s Causeway; 2001 Tiznow beat Sakhee.
Surely UK racing is more that AOB and his ilk running heaps of runners. If UK racing is so poor that it will be restricted to just 3 or 4 runners if the rules are changed, then heaven help us. Are people seriously saying that the UK can only find 3 or 4 G1 horses to contest a race? That the G1 events can only be padded by G2 and 3 horses?
Cyc, British racing is in a serious hurry down the road to mediocrity. The authorities put on more and more low-quality bookie-fodder that keeps more and more low-quality animals in training.
Only time will tell whether the tinkering with the top class events will bring in more new racegoers than it has alienated old ones.
The State betting monopoly means that French racing is always going to be financially better off than British racing and is why many long-distance equine travellers head to France. Only a couple of races at Royal Ascot really attract foreign runners from further afield than Ireland and France.
The immediate problem this season is that the three-year-olds do not look like a great crop aside from Frankel and possibly Golden Lilac. I think that will result in most of the top all-aged middle distance races going to the older horses and they are all trying to avoid each other. The prospect of small fields is disappointing for those of us that are going to a couple of the ‘big’ races in the summer months.
Only time will tell whether the tinkering with the top class events will bring in more new racegoers than it has alienated old ones.
The State betting monopoly means that French racing is always going to be financially better off than British racing and is why many long-distance equine travellers head to France. Only a couple of races at Royal Ascot really attract foreign runners from further afield than Ireland and France.
The immediate problem this season is that the three-year-olds do not look like a great crop aside from Frankel and possibly Golden Lilac. I think that will result in most of the top all-aged middle distance races going to the older horses and they are all trying to avoid each other. The prospect of small fields is disappointing for those of us that are going to a couple of the ‘big’ races in the summer months.
Cyc, I think you have hit the nail on the head. Most of the Group 1 races in the UK are contested by only 3 or 4 (sometimes less) genuine Group 1 horses. Most horses that show any sort of ability over 1m to 1m4f are shipped straight off to stud, although this practice seems to have decreased a little over the last couple of years.
Any of the Group races open to 3 year olds + generally only have 2 or 3 top class horses running.
So it would be fair to argue that if for example AOB ran less horses in these races this may entice other owners/trainers to take a chance but I would have to question whether these would be genuine Group 1 horses or not.
You could always get the odd improver I suppose as in Harbinger......I wouldn't have had him down as a top end Group 1 horse prior to the King George.
Any of the Group races open to 3 year olds + generally only have 2 or 3 top class horses running.
So it would be fair to argue that if for example AOB ran less horses in these races this may entice other owners/trainers to take a chance but I would have to question whether these would be genuine Group 1 horses or not.
You could always get the odd improver I suppose as in Harbinger......I wouldn't have had him down as a top end Group 1 horse prior to the King George.