The Eclipse

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If they limited the likes of AOB to 2 runners, then other trainers would be given some of the Galileo and Montjeu colts, rather than them all going to AOB. So it wouldn't mean the G1 fields would be small. At the end of the day AOB is given all the best juveniles, from the best sires that's why other trainers can't compete with him in G1s. If they limited his runners he wouldn't get all these impeccably bred juveniles. So other trainers would have the ammunition to beat him.

On the subject of Galileo and Fantastic Light. Galileo was hardly that unlucky in the Irish Chamion, he was forced a little wide round the bend, but it wasn't from any dodgy tactics from Godolphin, it was Mick Kinane going to early. My opinion on the race would be that the better 10f horse won, Galileo came alongside and had he been good enough he would have gone by, but he was done for speed, and he only started to close the gap through being the stronger stayer.

In the King George Fantastic Light was forced wide whilst Galileo had the perfect trip up the rails, so it's swings
and roundabouts really. You could also see again in that race that FL had the better turn of foot as he was doing him for speed and looked like he was going past Galileo, it was only in the final half furlong that Galileo outstayed him, so it should have been no surprise Fantastic Light managed to reverse form over a shorter trip in the Irish Champion.

It was Sakhee who battled it out with Tiznow. Sakhee was for me one of the most underrated horses, he won the Arc by a record 6 lengths from stall 17, that takes some doing. He also got so close to a great American horse in Tiznow, on dirt. I don't think Tiznow could have got anywhere near Sakhee on turf:biggrin:
 
Onto the eclipse...

As everyone knows im a massive Workforce fan.. and I think he's got great ability was one of the first derby winners in past 20yrs or so to win on his seasonal debut @ 4. I however don't think Workforce is at his peak over 10fl.. I prefer to see him over 1m4fl. That doesn't mean im totally dismissing the Sir Michael Stoute trained colt as So You Think didn't show what everyone expected at ascot, and im not totally convinced Rewilding has improved by such a significant amount.

I however do rate SYT and given the fact SYT is better over this trip and Stoute's form is frankly awful.. atrocious. I therefore think SYT is a good favourite and WF would have improved for his recent spin in the Brigadier Gerard stakes so its an intriguing contest. Furthermore I am going to swerve the big bets and go for some value in the form of Varian trained Sri Putra e/w @ 33/1 who finished 6 1/2 lengths behind Rewilding over at Ascot in the Prince Of Wales stakes.. having been held up towards the rear and made smooth headway on the outside and staying on for 3rd. I have since been told Sri Putra blew for 30mins after that race and will have therefore come on for that race loads...

My reasoning for this bet is that you can now get Sri Putra AP e/w for 1-2-3 placings.
We all know that there won't be 8 runners come Saturday however the 1-2-3 bet will still stand and Snow Fairy / Cape Blanco plus more will probably drop out so you could have 6 runners in the race and you are playing for 3 places.. (or 1 most likely) not a big bet for me at all. But will give me some interest.
 
Mwildcats...You won't get first 3 if there are 7 or less runners, it doesn't matter if it's an antepost bet, if 7 go to post it will be a 1/4 1-2. Just warning you before you have a bet :biggrin:
 
famous - perhaps you should ask your friend Aiden why he insists on running so many horses in certain Group races. I'm sure even he must have some idea what his best horses are. How many pacemakers do you need? I have seen at least one race - one from last season - where their only function seemed to be to get in the way.
 
Thanks for that shergar..

I had asked someone as I thought it was wrong but they assured me it was right..

You've saved my dough... been a long day. :tongue::cheesy:

Therefore no bet race for me :D
 
Yes why would you ever need 2 pacemakers, I can understand having 1 to ensure a fair gallop, but 2 makes no sense. The only reason I can come to on 2 pacemakers is that he is trying to impede other horses, he uses the 2 pacemakers stunt every year in the Arc. Against Sea The Stars in the Arc he had 2 pacemakers that hugged the rails and were sinking back into the pack in the home straight, knowing that Sea The Stars was drawn low, so he would most likely be challenging on the rails, or very close to. Luckily Sea The Stars avoided them. Fame And Glory was drawn higher so he knew the pacemakers wouldnt be impeding him.

Its little stunts like that that go unnoticed, that AOB has been getting away with for so long now, he dictates how all G1s are run just to suit his most fancied runner, it needs to be stamped out. He is gaining an unfair advantage over his rivals, which as far as I'm cconcerned is cheating :biggrin:
 
We'll have to stop agreeing like this Shergar! Although it is not technically cheating it is certainly not good for the sport which is why something needs to be done. So many Irish classics have been marred in recent years and you are right that it is now spreading more to Group races here and even in the Arc.
 
The reason it isn't classed as cheating, is because it's impossible to prove, but we all know what's going on. In the rules of racing every horse must be ridden to obtain it's highest possible finishing position, so I don't see how running the first mile of the Arc at a stupidly fast gallop, pulling 10 lengths clear of the rest of the field and coming to a canter in the home straight through tiredness is running that horse to it's full potential.

It is also against the rules to run as a team, so surely setting a gallop to suit your main hope is running as a team. AOB doesn't always get his pacemakers to go flat out, if he has a horse who he is worried may not stay he will make them go a slow pace, like with Rip Van Winkle in the 09 Derby. So his pacemakers are running g as a team to support the main hope AOB has in the race.

It's impossible to prove, but its still cheating:biggrin:
 
Yes, my mistake of course it was the great Sakhee got touched off by Tiznow in BC, with Fantastic Light winning the turf. I agree with Shergy Sakhee was a monster that day he cantered home alone in the Arc, great horse!

Regarding O'Brien and his 'pacemakers' the best joke of the lot had to be against Authorized in the Derby, wasn't it 8 runners friend Aiden through into it that year!! With at least 6 of them purely in to create traffic jams for Authorized! Thankfully his little plan was torn to threads that day :biggrin:
 
Below is a newspaper report after the 2008 Melbourne Cup - at least the Aussies are onto it! I love the comment from Murtagh about his horse being too slow. Is that why he went off like a scared rabbit! And AOB is saying he took three horses to the other side of the world and they were all the wrong horses - you couldn't make it up!

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Aidan O'Brien and his three jockeys were all called in by the stewards at Flemington Park to explain their rides after a distastrous Melbourne Cup for the Ballydoyle team, writes Paul Fielder.

They had been warned about team tactics by Racing Victoria's stewards in the lead-up to the race and, after setting off at a suicidal pace which would not have been in the interests of securing the best possible finishing positions, Johnny Murtagh (Septimus), Wayne Lordan (Alessandro Volta) and Colm O'Donoghue (Honolulu) were all summoned to appear with O'Brien before the stewards.

Murtagh and O'Donoghue have previous when it comes to team tactics. The pair were found guilty by the British Horseracing Authority after Murtagh on Duke Of Marmalade won the Juddmonte International at Newmarket in August.

However, their tactics in Melbourne backfired with the trio filling three of the final four positions.

O'Brien, who appeared to blame himself, said: "Perhaps we brought the wrong horses, perhaps we should have given them prep runs over here."

Murtagh refused to blame the breakneck pace for Septimus's defeat. He said: "He might not be the horse for the race. When they got into the straight he just stopped. He was basically too slow."
 
This O'Brien bashing is pretty silly. Is he perfect? No. Is he a top class trainer? Yes. People should be more grateful for the great horses/jockeys/trainerswe do have rather than seeking to belittle them (it amazes me the stick Fallon sometimes gets from people about his skills as a jockey)
 
kiyonemakibi said:
This O'Brien bashing is pretty silly. Is he perfect? No. Is he a top class trainer? Yes. People should be more grateful for the great horses/jockeys/trainerswe do have rather than seeking to belittle them (it amazes me the stick Fallon sometimes gets from people about his skills as a jockey)
Click to expand...

I just don't get why one trainer would run EIGHT horses in the one race, there's no need for that surely? It's a bit like those no mark 500-1 shots that have run in Champion Hurdle in recent times. They'll just get in the way of good horses and possibly create an unfair outcome.

He does try to 'create' a predetermined pace etc with the running style of his pacemakers. I don't think anyone wuld complain about one pacemaker, other stables do that, but when he's sending out 3, 4 or more his motives are understandably open to question.
 
I just find it ridiculous that one of the best trainers around gets accused of race-fixing and cheating and all sorts - no other high-profile trainer gets this stick. And he ran eight horses in the Derby once? Big deal!
 
Kiyonemakibi.....I dont think any one could question Fallons skills as a jockey, back in the day he was simply the best jockey I have ever seen, and I'm old enough to remember the Eddery's and Cauthens of this world. I even remember the back end of Piggotts career, but none of them were as good as Fallon. He rode 3 of the worst Derby winners in history, Oath, Kris Kin and North Light and no other jockey would have got them home. Kris Kin was possibly the most remarkable piece of riding I've ever seen, the drive in the saddle was immense, that's as close to carrying a horse over the line as your going to see, put any other jockey on that horse and it wouldn't have even made the first 3.

Dylan Thomas would have never lost a race had he had Fallon onboard throughout his career, Fallon was 8 from 8 on the Horse whilst the likes of Murtagh was 1 from 7. Dylan Thomas was a miles better horse with Fallon in the saddle, and Fallon was the only jockey who could get the best from him. I remember the Arc in 07 and seeing Fallon was on Dylan Thomas, and I knew he would win, because the horse would give his all for Fallon, it was a certainty, and I wagered one of my biggest ever bets at 11/2:biggrin:
 
i wasnt aware of that melbourne cup thing mentioned or the duke of marmalde race,but i rememeber falbrav in the irish champion stakes.he didnt get a clear run that day inside the final furlong,it wasnt nothing to do with the pacemaker getting in his way or high chaparrel ,but in the build up,o brien kept mentioning the fact high chaparrel wont run if its too fast,and what happened? they turned the taps on,cumani and holland were not impressed i seemed to remember,it was offcially gdfm(gd places) but it was softer,top class horses of a fast pace will beat standard on that official going - i always thought then the clerk had to give a misleading going report to prove he didnt water for one horse!
 
The going should be decided by the weather, and a race track should never be watered unless the conditions are considered to be dangerously firm, and with the climate in the UK and Ireland its highly unlikely the gound is ever going to become dangerously firm.

I remember Sir Micheal Stoute kicking his toys out the pram at the Breeders Cup because they refused to water the track for Workforce, and i was delighted that they didnt give in to his demands, the weather is pot luck, and just because your horse is the star attraction it doesnt mean you should be allowed to dictate the ground conditions to suit it. a 50/1 outsiders connection's wouldnt be able to dictate how much water is put on the track, so why should SMS just because his horse is the Arc winner. It should be a level playing field for all :biggrin:
 
Yeah - its a matter of opinion but in all their prime's Eddery & Cauthen were just as good in the saddle as Fallon without all the controversy! Just comes down to who your favourite is - Cauthen from those three would have been mine but Piggot is simply peerless in the history of the sport! If Kris Kin was good enough to win that Derby, as clearly he was, then Piggott would have got him home! The guy was as ruthless as they come!

If the stats show Fallon was 8/8 and Murtagh 1/7 then you can't go against that! Clearly the horse/jockey combo was the stat to follow in that. Wasn't a monster bet but I backed him in the Arc too! Think it was Fallon's hurrah before his supension...or one of them?

In terms of watering then they need to make the ground safe to race on and wherever you can produce outright 'Good' ground that should be the case. Certainly in the BC if they going was safe enough for it not to be watered then SMS should just go along with it & if its not right pull the horse out which he did. Shouldn't be any preferences either way.
 
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