Polygamy

[Dragonborn]

IF Dragon has read 'The Satanic Verses' he hasn't understood it.

Didn't like to say that Terror but I await enlightenment as I'm so 'staggeringly ignorant' myself.

On the Hamza point I agree. Politicians are terrified of appearing racist and have laid off hate preachers as a result. That's why the odious Anjem Choudary gets a free ride to spout his crap and send his underlings out into the Eastend to terrorize fellow Musims. I believe that if anyone is convicted of any crime that threatens the people (including soldiers) of this country they should have their citizenship stripped and be deported to a country stupid enough to take them. Increase the foreign aid to some banana republic somewhere and they'd have them in a flash.

Remember in days gone by such action was considered treason and you'd be executed.

 

[Dragonborn]

Agree with your 'backlash' point Lib. People in the Uk have always been welcoming but when that hospitality is abused they will bite back. It's coming.

 

[LIBERTARIAN]

Choudary was born here,so is presumably not at risk of being deported anywhere.

Nothing stopping the authorities playing hard ball with the bastard though,subtle harassment,etc.,make his life a real misery.

 

[Bob the slob]

Didn't like to say that Terror but I await enlightenment as I'm so 'staggeringly ignorant' myself.

On the Hamza point I agree. Politicians are terrified of appearing racist and have laid off hate preachers as a result. That's why the odious Anjem Choudary gets a free ride to spout his crap and send his underlings out into the Eastend to terrorize fellow Musims. I believe that if anyone is convicted of any crime that threatens the people (including soldiers) of this country they should have their citizenship stripped and be deported to a country stupid enough to take them. Increase the foreign aid to some banana republic somewhere and they'd have them in a flash.

Remember in days gone by such action was considered treason and you'd be executed.

More big talk.
Are we citizens? 'Nationality laws introduced the word citizen during the break-up of the British Empire - but only as a means to differentiate UK residents from other British subjects for immigration purposes.' Sorry to inform you but we no longer have an empire.
Using the murder of a brave man to make political gain is low.
Your understanding of world politics is insulting,
In days gone by the vast majority of the population had no vote, couldn't own land and worshiped as set out by the monarch.
Also in days gone by brave men mentally scarred by war were shot by their own offers for the treason of cowardice.
Also in days gone by the group that has imposed its will over others against their will is the British.

My position - there is no god so the only satisfactory situation is a secular state.
And as long as religious hate and racist threads appear on this site I will reply.
However, I repeat my opposition to these threads on here - there are other sites available - and believe they should be removed. ADMIN!

 

[Bob the slob]

Bob pretty much most of what you say here is factual, though I would like to correct one mistake you have made, and that is that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic law, that ended with the death of Christ, the old law covenant was replaced by a new covenant set forth in the Christian Greek scriptures. Bob I also agree with you that this forum is not the place to debate Religion or the Bible, but Muslim terrorist I see no problem with...................

Again, it's down to which bits the follow chooses, and I quote

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.' Matthew 5:17
King James Bible

 

[Dragonborn]

Big problems need 'big talk' (ie big solutions) But I'll ignore the baiting you seem rather fond of and answer your points.

"Are we citizens?" Yes and I have a passport to prove it. Having an Empire or not has nothing to do with it.

"Using the murder of a brave man to make political gain is low." Don't understand that because I haven't. When I referred to 'soldiers' I was referring to those who serve overseas actually and are subjected to attacks by their fellow Brits. But now you mention it, yes I'd include that brave man too if it's the same one you're talking about.

"Your understanding of world politics is insulting" To whom? You? If so how? Like others here you're happy to post incomprehensible passages and abuse others without actually saying why you disagree.

I believe it's an act of treason for a Britiish subject to travel overseas to attack british soldiers. I also believe it's an act of treason to do so on home soil. If you think otherwise then say so and be rather less obtuse in your replies, most of which are unfathomable to be honest. The Government just last week has extended powers to strip even native born Brits of citizenship though there are some restictions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/15/w...p-terrorism-suspects-of-citizenship.html?_r=0

Seems you're a conundrum, Bob. You quote the Bible to support your arguments but profess to be an atheist (I applaud you for that btw) and you continue to engage in a debate of which you disapprove.

Good stuff though - just lay off the insults, OK?

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Again, it's down to which bits the follow chooses, and I quote

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.' Matthew 5:17


King James Bible

Yes the law (Mosaic) was a tutor leading to Christ, he fulfilled it, but I repeat Christians are no longer under the Mosaic law, they are under the Law of Christ, hence why they are called Christians, The Law that the Jews were given was a means to clearly point out their imperfect and sinful state, and hence when they had sinned or fell foul of the law they could atone for their transgression with animal sacrifices, but this was only a temporary measure until the arrival of the Messiah, who would atone for human sin perfectly.

The Jews did not recognise Christ as the Messiah, they are no longer the chosen nation, their religious order was condemn by Jesus, and his prophecy of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled in 70 AD, by Roman Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command. Jesus spoke of 'not a stone would be left upon a stone' regarding the Temple, and not even Titus could save the temple from his own soldiers under his command, the destruction was as was prophesied, and Titus failed to save the Jewish temple as a trophy for Rome.

Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, saying that the victory did not come through his own efforts but that he had merely served as an instrument of God's wrath.

 

[Terror ball]

Didn't like to say that Terror but I await enlightenment as I'm so 'staggeringly ignorant' myself.

Yes, breathtakingly arrogant and blissfully ignorant all at once wasn't it....puts me in mind of the loudmouth pub bore.

Wonder if he'll try to explain what it was that he meant and how he came to that conclusion.
He's probably googling 'Satanic Verses' right now
Good luck with that Phillip

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Not going to get into this debate but feel compelled to point out that IF Dragon has read 'The Satanic Verses' he hasn't understood it.
I would advise everyone to read it for themselves and remember that it is a work of fiction which uses the times, people and stories associated with the birth of Islam as a tool to discuss deeper truths about humanity (principally that truth regarding history, culture and human relations in general is subjective term).
He could have used the imagery, characters and hypocrisy inherent in any of the World's religions. He used Islam because of it was the one he knew most about due to his family and specifically his Grandfather's influence.

I have read his fantasies, his humour and his mocking of Islam, my point was directed at the Quran, perhaps I didn't make it well, but lets just say my view of the Quran (which I have read) is summed up with the phrase 'Satanic verses'. The Quran is simply a counterfeit 'Holy book' created to appease the Arabic chip on shoulder, for not being selected as the chosen people, they have never got over being discarded at the time of Abraham, they are the offspring of Hagar, Abraham's Egyptian wife, who fled with her son Ishmael. Hājar (Arabic), is the Arabic name used to identify the wife of the Islamic prophet Ibrāhīm (Abraham) and the mother of the prophet Ismā'īl (Ishmael). Although not mentioned by name in the Qur'an, she is referenced and alluded to via the story of her husband. She is a revered woman in the Islamic faith. The Quran assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, but the Bible it is not. The enmity between Arab and Jew goes back to the time of the Prophet Abraham, and it's no coincidence that he and his Egyption wife Hagar, with their son Ishmael are so much focused on in the Quran.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Yes, breathtakingly arrogant and blissfully ignorant all at once wasn't it....puts me in mind of the loudmouth pub bore.

Wonder if he'll try to explain what it was that he meant and how he came to that conclusion.
He's probably googling 'Satanic Verses' right now
Good luck with that Phillip

When it comes to being a loud mouth, I think you and the Knackered one both take joint first prize!......................

 

[Terror ball]

I have read his fantasies, his humour and his mocking of Islam, my point was directed at the Quran, perhaps I didn't make it well, but lets just say my view of the Quran (which I have read) is summed up with the phrase 'Satanic verses'. The Quran is simply a counterfeit 'Holy book' created to appease the Arabic chip on shoulder, for not being selected as the chosen people, they have never got over being discarded at the time of Abraham, they are the offspring of Hagar, Abraham's Egyptian wife, who fled with her son Ishmael. Hājar (Arabic), is the Arabic name used to identify the wife of the Islamic prophet Ibrāhīm (Abraham) and the mother of the prophet Ismā'īl (Ishmael). Although not mentioned by name in the Qur'an, she is referenced and alluded to via the story of her husband. She is a revered woman in the Islamic faith. The Quran assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, but the Bible it is not. The enmity between Arab and Jew goes back to the time of the Prophet Abraham, and it's no coincidence that he and his Egyption wife Hagar, with their son Ishmael are so much focused on in the Quran.

'The Satanic Verses' that the title of the book refers too are extracts that Mohammed opted to leave out (they refer to the right to continue to worship 3 female Gods that were popular amongst his people at the time)...he claimed that they were a trick sent from the devil and discarded them.

Please explain your statement; "No doubt in my mind that the Muslim faith is based on Satanic verses, and Salman Rushdie was very true to point this out"




Sounds to me like a bloke umm-ing and ah-ing over how to pitch his new religion to people, ie. what they might find palatable.

The book focuses on this time as it is interesting from an historical point of view and should lead people to focus on the idea of a man wandering off into a desert (or up a mountain in this case) and coming back with a text claiming to be the word of God....which he then edits to suit.....intelligent people (even children) should find this idea ludicrous.
Contained in this story about the omitted extracts (which became known in the West as the Satanic Verses) is the big ****ing lie at the heart of all religion.

Mohammed, and any other prophet for that matter, was either insane (listening to the voices in his head and thinking they were that of God...sounds like a schizophrenic) or a ****ing liar looking to manipulate the idiots around him.

"Counterfeit Holy Book".....Jesus Christ there isn't one authentic holy book!!! They were all written by unscrupulous bastards like Mohammed, Abraham, the disciples of Jesus etc.

You make out that Judeo-Christianity is somehow superior...
The only people who take this **** seriously are weak and usually quite stupid.

 

[Dragonborn]

Spot on Terror.

As for "mocking Islam" if that was used by Phill in relation to me (if it wasn't I'm getting confused and apologise) then I would say it's not mocking more criticising, and challenging those who believe as to the reasons why they believe. They don't have to respond - they can tell me it's a personal matter for them and that's fine but it leaves the challenges unanswered.

But at least I'm consistent in that I challenge all religions and make no apology for it. I respect your right to believe whatever you like of course but if I question you about those beliefs it shouldn't be too hard to answer if you have a solid foundation. But I agree with Terror 100% in that I always take blind faith as a sign of an unquestioning, weak mind. I see insults rather than debate in the same way. Sorry.

On a side note, talking about Moses reminds me of the biggest charlatan of all, Joseph Smith who 'invented' Mormonism. He did this by apparently finding engraved plates buried in the ground which he then translated (through divine gift) into the 'Book of Mormon'. He then reburied them. His millions of followers today still believe the Garden of Eden is in Missouri.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

'The Satanic Verses' that the title of the book refers too are extracts that Mohammed opted to leave out (they refer to the right to continue to worship 3 female Gods that were popular amongst his people at the time)...he claimed that they were a trick sent from the devil and discarded them.

Please explain your statement; "No doubt in my mind that the Muslim faith is based on Satanic verses, and Salman Rushdie was very true to point this out"




Sounds to me like a bloke umm-ing and ah-ing over how to pitch his new religion to people, ie. what they might find palatable.

The book focuses on this time as it is interesting from an historical point of view and should lead people to focus on the idea of a man wandering off into a desert (or up a mountain in this case) and coming back with a text claiming to be the word of God....which he then edits to suit.....intelligent people (even children) should find this idea ludicrous.
Contained in this story about the omitted extracts (which became known in the West as the Satanic Verses) is the big f**king lie at the heart of all religion.

Mohammed, and any other prophet for that matter, was either insane (listening to the voices in his head and thinking they were that of God...sounds like a schizophrenic) or a f**king liar looking to manipulate the idiots around him.

"Counterfeit Holy Book".....Jesus Christ there isn't one authentic holy book!!! They were all written by unscrupulous bastards like Mohammed, Abraham, the disciples of Jesus etc.

You make out that Judeo-Christianity is somehow superior...
The only people who take this **** seriously are weak and usually quite stupid.

I've made my point if your too thick to grasp it that's your problem, it's not about Judeo-christianity being superior, it's about which is truthful and historicaly accurate. talking of stupidity try looking in the mirror!...................

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Spot on Terror.

As for "mocking Islam" if that was used by Phill in relation to me (if it wasn't I'm getting confused and apologise) then I would say it's not mocking more criticising, and challenging those who believe as to the reasons why they believe. They don't have to respond - they can tell me it's a personal matter for them and that's fine but it leaves the challenges unanswered.

But at least I'm consistent in that I challenge all religions and make no apology for it. I respect your right to believe whatever you like of course but if I question you about those beliefs it shouldn't be too hard to answer if you have a solid foundation. But I agree with Terror 100% in that I always take blind faith as a sign of an unquestioning, weak mind. I see insults rather than debate in the same way. Sorry.

On a side note, talking about Moses reminds me of the biggest charlatan of all, Joseph Smith who 'invented' Mormonism. He did this by apparently finding engraved plates buried in the ground which he then translated (through divine gift) into the 'Book of Mormon'. He then reburied them. His millions of followers today still believe the Garden of Eden is in Missouri.

Your just Knackered!.......................

 

[Dragonborn]

Don't understand why you can't debate rather than insult, mate. But hey, your call.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

If muslim terrorists can be debated here,on what is purported to be a football forum,then I can see no reason for not allowing religion,and the bible, the same privilege,or anything else that fires the imagination.

You wouldn't have to join in,Dragon.

I'll leave you atheist's to your interlectual religous debate then, enjoy!................

 

[Dragonborn]

atheist's?
interlectual?
religous?

I feel waves of irony wash over me.

Sorry Phill.

 

[DragonPhilljack]

Sorry to hear that. Not bad for a religion that was poached from Christianity centuries after the Bible. And I thought Christians were mad.

Just spotted this comment, please explain?

 

[DragonPhilljack]

atheist's?
interlectual?
religous?

I feel waves of irony wash over me.

Sorry Phill.

No problem good to have a sense of humour!.....................

 

[Terror ball]

I've made my point if your too thick to grasp it that's your problem, it's not about Judeo-christianity being superior, it's about which is truthful and historicaly accurate. talking of stupidity try looking in the mirror!...................

That is the point of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses....the truth regarding human history, politics, religion, culture etc. is entirely subjective. The truth depends on your perspective.

The Bible is not truthful and historically accurate to most people with a brain Phillip...though to some it is the truth and the word of God. Those people are no better and have no greater claim to the truth than those who are Islamic, a Mormon, a Jew, Church of the flying spaghetti monster etc.
...and I have no greater grasp of the truth than good Penclawdd boys who attend chapel on a Sunday or who claim to have studied politics yet haven't grasped the concept of what we mean when we use the term UK foreign policy.

It's all just different people, with different truths, coming from different perspectives....and the view which convinces most prevails.