J
O/T Ched Evans!
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But how about if she said yes earlier in the night but then got so drunk she didn't say no?
Listen I am not condoning this in the slightest, but you have to imagine these footballers must have 'ladies' throwing themselves at them left,right and centre, most if not all of the time these 'ladies' will have had a few drink at the time. there is a very,very fine line here, which i'm sure on plenty of occasions is very blurred.
It must be very hard to get a fair idea of how things happened I presume that both parties had been drinking so even to get a straight story must be a challenge.
J
JKCanary
Guest
I know you're not condoning it. I just think if there is even the tiniest, most minute bit of doubt in a situation like that, it would be a 'no' for me.
Really there are separate arguments here is the punishment for rape harsh enough, given it can result in a loire sentence I'd say that the issue is that the minimum is too low. I'm certain there is no one on here who is condoning rape
The other argument is after someone has served a prison sentence how should they return to society. should they be ostracised because of their last or should then be given a further chance? Perhaps the US felony rule where 3 separate convictions results in a life sentence is a good idea?
The other argument is after someone has served a prison sentence how should they return to society. should they be ostracised because of their last or should then be given a further chance? Perhaps the US felony rule where 3 separate convictions results in a life sentence is a good idea?
Agree with what you have said above. Clearly integration back into society is important (unless you feel we should have a death penalty). I think a big difficulty people have with footballers in this situation is not that are coming back into a profession, but they will then be pretty much worshipped if they score a goal or help a team to promotion. Do these people deserve such adulation after what they have done? I have to say I would find it hard to ever support and cheer for a player who was found guilty.
Certainly not! But you can guarantee if he scores a goal for his next club they will start singing his praises and that is what many struggle with. I guess you bring a whole other issue up there. Should footballers be role models? A whole other debate.
As someone who has been thru court system in my youth (nothing like this crime) and luckily not jailed (plea bargain) whatever the tariff you've done your time under rehabilitation of offenders act you're done and free to resume your life.
Whatever the moral argument that's another issue you've "paid" your debt.
Now obviously the victims have to suffer etc but that is the society in which we live, those are the rules he's free to do whatever he wants now.
I won't comment on the did he do it as that's a hard one maybe he did, maybe he didn't and was stitched up maybe he was a silly young man who thought he had consent and didn't or she changed her mind only they know for sure.
It's a tough moral call but I say it's done he's paid I'm not going to sit in judgement on the lad I'm not perfect
Whatever the moral argument that's another issue you've "paid" your debt.
Now obviously the victims have to suffer etc but that is the society in which we live, those are the rules he's free to do whatever he wants now.
I won't comment on the did he do it as that's a hard one maybe he did, maybe he didn't and was stitched up maybe he was a silly young man who thought he had consent and didn't or she changed her mind only they know for sure.
It's a tough moral call but I say it's done he's paid I'm not going to sit in judgement on the lad I'm not perfect
What about the Plymouth keeper who killed those two little brothers while blind drunk driving to Norris's wedding?
He's back in the game & as far as I'm concerned his crime was far worse than Evans, although I'm not condoning that rape is less horrific but it's not man slaughter!
These young footballers have a responsibility to do right whilst in the public eye while earning vasts amounts of cash, if they **** up with Drink driving, assaulting woman ect then I feel they they shouldn't be allowed back into that privaledged situation. Kids are very impressionable and look up to these players, what does it teach them if you can **** up and then restart over?
He's back in the game & as far as I'm concerned his crime was far worse than Evans, although I'm not condoning that rape is less horrific but it's not man slaughter!
These young footballers have a responsibility to do right whilst in the public eye while earning vasts amounts of cash, if they **** up with Drink driving, assaulting woman ect then I feel they they shouldn't be allowed back into that privaledged situation. Kids are very impressionable and look up to these players, what does it teach them if you can **** up and then restart over?
Nice idea mate doesn't work. Heard of miscarriage of justice, mistaken identity?
If you haven't been thru a court case you probably don't know how it works, please go visit a court, talk to the usher.
Hands up how many of you thought, he's ****ing guilty then after hearing :
He spoke only to confirm his name and date of birth.
Come on how many thought that after you hear it in the news, I know I used to.
That's all you are allowed to say, if you say more than that it'd be contempt of court and you'd be taken out. Yet the way the media hang that it sounds like we'll **** me he must be dodgy then.
Also it's about credibility in front of a jury. If your solicitor believes the witness/victim can put on a better "show" in front of a jury then if it's not a very serious matter you get advised to plead guilty as if you do you will get credit for not putting victim thru court, no wasting court time and if it's a relatively trivial matter that can be the difference between suspended sentence etc or full blown prison. So you plead guilty as the only guaranteed way of avoiding a jail term because even if you're innocent the other person is a better liar than you are at being honest and you plead not guilty instead of a nice suspended sentence or fine you get xx years instead.
Believe me it is not as simple and idealistic as you think
If you haven't been thru a court case you probably don't know how it works, please go visit a court, talk to the usher.
Hands up how many of you thought, he's ****ing guilty then after hearing :
He spoke only to confirm his name and date of birth.
Come on how many thought that after you hear it in the news, I know I used to.
That's all you are allowed to say, if you say more than that it'd be contempt of court and you'd be taken out. Yet the way the media hang that it sounds like we'll **** me he must be dodgy then.
Also it's about credibility in front of a jury. If your solicitor believes the witness/victim can put on a better "show" in front of a jury then if it's not a very serious matter you get advised to plead guilty as if you do you will get credit for not putting victim thru court, no wasting court time and if it's a relatively trivial matter that can be the difference between suspended sentence etc or full blown prison. So you plead guilty as the only guaranteed way of avoiding a jail term because even if you're innocent the other person is a better liar than you are at being honest and you plead not guilty instead of a nice suspended sentence or fine you get xx years instead.
Believe me it is not as simple and idealistic as you think
Not wishing to be controversial but I do feel for DLT and the way he is being targeted by the CPS! They obviously want to give a celebrity a good caning after they spectacularly failed with Jimmy Tarbuck, Bill Roache and Michael Le Vell and the Tory MP last week! 
So would it not be better to do away with trial by jury? Maybe replace it with a legally trained panel (or something similar) who could weigh up the evidence better than Joe Public?
The case, as presented by the media at the time, did not seem clear cut enough to warrant conviction. If I remember correctly, his mate f***ed her while she was drunk, then texted him to come and join the party and he duly obliged. So his mate f***ed her at peak drunkeness, but got off, and he f***ed her later and got punished. However, for a guilty verdict to have been returned, the case must have gone on some stronger evidence than the victim's word alone.
Now, for those who have never known experience of a woman who has been raped, you are incredibly fortunate. My ex was raped as a child, and when we first started to do stuff, she recoiled and started crying in the corner. I asked her what was wrong and she told me about a family friend who had used babysitting as an excuse to abuse her 4 year old self, telling her she would get hurt if she informed her mum. I was so gobsmacked I couldn't speak for hours on end, I just cried. It effected my sleep for years afterwards. As a result of that, we never slept together, and we'd been in a relationship for almost 3 years. She broke up with me, and is probs banging some guys brains out now, but I'm proud I got her to that point, from where she had been.
One night, whilst I was with my current girlfriend, I told her about this experience and how it made me wary of a sexual relationship. To my horror, she went silent, and then explained she had had a traumatic experience herself. At age 13, in foster care, her foster dad took her aside and told her she would never get a boyfriend, and that he would teach her how to get one, and if she refused, he would make sure her and her sister were homeless. He stuck his tongue in her throat and made her give him oral. Every time his wife left them alone, he forced himself on her, and the abuse got worse and worse and worse. She explained in horrifying detail, sobbing at several intervals, as I reeled open mouthed. She explained about her constant flirtation with suicidal thoughts, and how she broke down in tears every night. She finally got the courage to speak out, 5 years later (5 years of sustained and continual abuse) when it turned out her Sister had been set upon by this monster too. In court, the bastard had the temerity to plead not-guilty. Upon being utterly destroyed by the prosecution, he changed his plea to guilty and turned with a smirk to her in the courtroom, and said "but I could tell she enjoyed it"...
Now, I want one of these people who believe "everyone can be rehabilitated" or "everyone deserves a second chance", to tell me I'm wrong for wanting to kill that unhuman sack of putrid **** when he comes out of Prison in just five years. The reason I shared these events with you, rather than just some off-topic story about how I apparently have some innate homing-beacon for these awful back-stories, is because I want people to understand the enormity of the word rape. A word most of you don't actually understand, because it's just rough-sex in your mind, the idea of mental and physical torture not one you can comfortably relate to. If you can get the gist of just how heart-breaking it was for me to listen to both of those stories, then you get about 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% of how it might feel to be the victim of such a crime.
The system is too naive. Despite what I've shared, I find it's admirable that our society is so forgiving, but it's not in anyway realistic. I think people get bogged down in the time-scale, 10 years, 15 years, 30 years etc etc... The time is largely unimportant for me. For me, release must be earned on chance of righting a wrong or of the individual performing a genuine function in society that, whilst not atoning for the actual error, serves a role of good and redemption, rather than just disappearing into obscurity with a new name and identity because that's considered "human rights". To me, this means most murderers and rapists will never be released. Their crime too great to be repaid through any service, and I think that's right because there is genuinely no excuse for those wrongs. If any of us had raped a woman, I should hope we would be ashamed and want to be locked up and the key thrown away, because we have stronger moral and social values, and actually care about those around them. In the same way, I'm appalled Oscar is fighting the case at all. If I murdered my girlfriend, or shot her "by accident" several times, I'd think prison is the right place for me. Good people show a willingness to genuinely repent.
Every case is not the same, however, and without knowing the Ched Evans case in detail, I won't what his ultimate consequence should be. If he had been the monster who attacked my girlfriend, however, there's no way I could condone him being able to walk, never mind play football again.
Now, for those who have never known experience of a woman who has been raped, you are incredibly fortunate. My ex was raped as a child, and when we first started to do stuff, she recoiled and started crying in the corner. I asked her what was wrong and she told me about a family friend who had used babysitting as an excuse to abuse her 4 year old self, telling her she would get hurt if she informed her mum. I was so gobsmacked I couldn't speak for hours on end, I just cried. It effected my sleep for years afterwards. As a result of that, we never slept together, and we'd been in a relationship for almost 3 years. She broke up with me, and is probs banging some guys brains out now, but I'm proud I got her to that point, from where she had been.
One night, whilst I was with my current girlfriend, I told her about this experience and how it made me wary of a sexual relationship. To my horror, she went silent, and then explained she had had a traumatic experience herself. At age 13, in foster care, her foster dad took her aside and told her she would never get a boyfriend, and that he would teach her how to get one, and if she refused, he would make sure her and her sister were homeless. He stuck his tongue in her throat and made her give him oral. Every time his wife left them alone, he forced himself on her, and the abuse got worse and worse and worse. She explained in horrifying detail, sobbing at several intervals, as I reeled open mouthed. She explained about her constant flirtation with suicidal thoughts, and how she broke down in tears every night. She finally got the courage to speak out, 5 years later (5 years of sustained and continual abuse) when it turned out her Sister had been set upon by this monster too. In court, the bastard had the temerity to plead not-guilty. Upon being utterly destroyed by the prosecution, he changed his plea to guilty and turned with a smirk to her in the courtroom, and said "but I could tell she enjoyed it"...
Now, I want one of these people who believe "everyone can be rehabilitated" or "everyone deserves a second chance", to tell me I'm wrong for wanting to kill that unhuman sack of putrid **** when he comes out of Prison in just five years. The reason I shared these events with you, rather than just some off-topic story about how I apparently have some innate homing-beacon for these awful back-stories, is because I want people to understand the enormity of the word rape. A word most of you don't actually understand, because it's just rough-sex in your mind, the idea of mental and physical torture not one you can comfortably relate to. If you can get the gist of just how heart-breaking it was for me to listen to both of those stories, then you get about 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% of how it might feel to be the victim of such a crime.
The system is too naive. Despite what I've shared, I find it's admirable that our society is so forgiving, but it's not in anyway realistic. I think people get bogged down in the time-scale, 10 years, 15 years, 30 years etc etc... The time is largely unimportant for me. For me, release must be earned on chance of righting a wrong or of the individual performing a genuine function in society that, whilst not atoning for the actual error, serves a role of good and redemption, rather than just disappearing into obscurity with a new name and identity because that's considered "human rights". To me, this means most murderers and rapists will never be released. Their crime too great to be repaid through any service, and I think that's right because there is genuinely no excuse for those wrongs. If any of us had raped a woman, I should hope we would be ashamed and want to be locked up and the key thrown away, because we have stronger moral and social values, and actually care about those around them. In the same way, I'm appalled Oscar is fighting the case at all. If I murdered my girlfriend, or shot her "by accident" several times, I'd think prison is the right place for me. Good people show a willingness to genuinely repent.
Every case is not the same, however, and without knowing the Ched Evans case in detail, I won't what his ultimate consequence should be. If he had been the monster who attacked my girlfriend, however, there's no way I could condone him being able to walk, never mind play football again.
It's a tricky one, a good start might be teaching this stuff at school, I had no idea how it works until I was dragged thru it by psychopathic ex so better understanding by the natives would be a good start. Maybe better regulation of plea bargains but to move from a jury of peers to trained legal types could make it even worse. It's a real tough one, the media don't help either but....
If you was in court on a murder charge, pleading not guilty, and hadn't in fact committed the murder, which would you prefer to listen to the evidence and pass verdict on you?
Again, if you was in court on a murder charge pleading not guilty, but had actually committed the murder, which would you prefer to listen to the evidence and pass verdict on you?
I know what my answers would be to both questions.
I don't think anyone has said. Is saying everyone gets rehabilitated obviously a part of it is atoning for your crime (the punishment of prison if you will) to be rehabilitated you have to be sorry and acknowledge that what you did was wrong. That is where your classic monster cases would fall down on those types as you describe are never rehabilitated and if you don't at least do that you cannot be considered for parole.
There of course are crimes where the offender should receive a whole life tariff that is right. My parents work as foster carers so pick up a lot of pieces of lives to put back together as you describe and it's not something you ever get over and no punishment is ever enough in these cases.
Going in to specifics like in this case is so hard as we don't know the full details and likely never will and all we can do is say he's done his time for our pov we can't judge him so we have to accept he's paid for his crime. If we as individuals carry around placards and start witch hunts without the full details that would be a terrible wrong too.
I knew a guy many years ago in Norwich who had his flat petrol bombed nearly killing him and his 2 children because a tabloid published his address saying a **** lived there (who was in prison already) it's this kind of thing why we have to have the rehabilitation of offenders act.
I didn't do what I was accused of (false imprisonment) I was advised to plead guilty because we had pic front door it was locked, key was on Window sill so technically false imprisonment believe it or not.
I have an enhanced crb for my job and have to explain it if I change jobs and require a crb again so from that pov offences carry forward too.
No one deserves to be a victim of crime ever.
If I said you cuddle up with your wife and try to wake her up and get saucy with her and she doesn't wake up (it's just an example not suggesting anyone does or doesn't do it) that is rape. You'd be surprised how many young men if they're sleeping with their partners literally sleeping don't know that that is still rape.
I can't overstate enough I feel we do not teach children how the law works, how courts work, loads I've spoken to didn't even know you can go watch cases tried, I think that's awful too.
Sorry for going on & hope I haven't offended anyone, not my intention