O/T zero hour contracts

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bobgee said:
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover

Do you honestly think that employers granted holidays, a shorter working week, pay increases etc out of the goodness of their hearts?(Rowntrees brothers excepted).

Do you still read Enid Blyton or Hans Christian Andersen? I heard they write a good fairy story too.
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Yes. Mine does for one. There are an awful lot of good employers who businesses strive always give and have always gave more then the minimum allowed by law. And not just the Rowntree Brothers. Look at the major stores on the high street M and S and John Lewis for example. It's a free market place for staff. if your boss is **** then leave and work for somebody else. if you can't find a job within 2 miles of your home move away (i did!!) or start your own business to compete with the old boss (plenty have).

Not all employers are multimillionaires and alot now are struggling to keep their companies head above water and their employees in a job(believe it or not)! for example,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382352/All-thatll-left-Costa-Tesco-charity-shops-Lament-chocolate-maker-forced-close-rent-rates-VAT-cut-profits-100-week.html

This guy is not only burdened by high taxes and rates (to pay for the public sector) but also probably the minimum wage legislation. But then again he's a millionaire business owner fleecing his staff!!

To pay Union Bosses 100,000 pounds per year to hold the country to ransom is stupid in today's world when we are competing with China. FFS Tube drivers are the worst!

My turn to ask a couple of question from you...

Do you work for a Public employer and not a Private?
Have you ever ran/owned your own business?
Have you ever moved away from you home in order to get work?
Have you ever retrained in order to change jobs to get better pay/conditions?

I bet the only one with a yes is the first question.
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
Yes. Mine does for one. There are an awful lot of good employers who businesses strive always give and have always gave more then the minimum allowed by law. And not just the Rowntree Brothers. Look at the major stores on the high street M and S and John Lewis for example. It's a free market place for staff. if your boss is **** then leave and work for somebody else. if you can't find a job within 2 miles of your home move away (i did!!) or start your own business to compete with the old boss (plenty have).

Not all employers are multimillionaires and alot now are struggling to keep their companies head above water and their employees in a job(believe it or not)! for example,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382352/All-thatll-left-Costa-Tesco-charity-shops-Lament-chocolate-maker-forced-close-rent-rates-VAT-cut-profits-100-week.html

This guy is not only burdened by high taxes and rates (to pay for the public sector) but also probably the minimum wage legislation. But then again he's a millionaire business owner fleecing his staff!!

To pay Union Bosses 100,000 pounds per year to hold the country to ransom is stupid in today's world when we are competing with China. FFS Tube drivers are the worst!

My turn to ask a couple of question from you...

Do you work for a Public employer and not a Private?
Have you ever ran/owned your own business?
Have you ever moved away from you home in order to get work?
Have you ever retrained in order to change jobs to get better pay/conditions?

I bet the only one with a yes is the first question.
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To answer your questions

I do not work in the public sector

I have run a business

I have moved to the South the midlands and Yorkshire for work

I am now in my forth career

I have not been unemployed since 1980

I make a good living

I don't claim benefits

I am a trade unionist and I believe that we are a more civilised community if we have a democratic economy which offers a balance between capital and labour.

Collective action in the form of trade unions are the only means to level up the playing field.

You keep talking about good employers and most are good, however they all work in the framework set by the wider society. That framework has been established through hard fought changes over the last 150 years.

To allow the likes of Ashley to exploit workers both here and in the third world is to accept that employment rights are for the few not the likes of you and me.

The changes in employment law in the last two years have stripped employees of rights until they have been employed for two years. You be unfairly sacked, with no rights up to two years after you join your employer. This plus the extended use of zero hour contracts is why trade unions are needed
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
really?

Do you run your own business?
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why does everything seem to revolve around owning your own business there is more to society than that despite what your Daily mail would have you believe.

Unions were created to protect employees they were NOT created just to stifle small business - if the business is not viable with sensible terms and conditions then it should not be created.

Are you a member of the Taxpayers Alliance?
 
SafcPenguin said:
why does everything seem to revolve around owning your own business there is more to society than that despite what your Daily mail would have you believe.

Unions were created to protect employees they were NOT created just to stifle small business - if the business is not viable with sensible terms and conditions then it should not be created.

Are you a member of the Taxpayers Alliance?
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And as I have said before, you live in a free country.. (well free-sih due to labour's excessive CCTV, nanny state, political correctness and email snooping etc) if you don't like your lot at work go and work somewhere else... that's what CAPITALISM is! <doh>

Look mate... as i said before my Dad lost his well qualified factory job due to the unions and my mother's job (a nurse) was crippled by them as well. I grew up on a council estate in one of the highest unemployed boroughs in the UK. I feel like i have a right as anybody to question the unions especially people who don't contribute to the taxes that run the country. There is a saying Socialists - bad at spending other peoples money.

See you're avoiding the questions. Do you create wealth that pays for taxes or do you not? If you don't then you shouldn't have an opinion on how the wealth earners want their taxes spent? I suppose you are over the moon with your council tax bill?

At the moment I live in a country that was ruined by the very people that used to give the Labour Unions free holidays. A friend of mine who married a Polish girl who defected in the 80's told me a story of how when she first got to London she walked up to somebody selling the 'socialist worker' and spat in his face. She was so disgusted. If you live or have lived in a socialist country you would have felt the same. You know nothing!!

Live in North Korea if you want to live in a socialist EUtopia!

Now back to the football... something you might know about! ;) Maybe we can talk about the players union or the bosman ruling?
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
And as I have said before, you live in a free country.. (well free-sih due to labour's excessive CCTV, nanny state, political correctness and email snooping etc) if you don't like your lot at work go and work somewhere else... that's what CAPITALISM is! <doh>

Look mate... as i said before my Dad lost his well qualified factory job due to the unions and my mother's job (a nurse) was crippled by them as well. I grew up on a council estate in one of the highest unemployed boroughs in the UK. I feel like i have a right as anybody to question the unions especially people who don't contribute to the taxes that run the country. There is a saying Socialists - bad at spending other peoples money.

See you're avoiding the questions. Do you create wealth that pays for taxes or do you not? If you don't then you shouldn't have an opinion on how the wealth earners want their taxes spent? I suppose you are over the moon with your council tax bill?

At the moment I live in a country that was ruined by the very people that used to give the Labour Unions free holidays. A friend of mine who married a Polish girl who defected in the 80's told me a story of how when she first got to London she walked up to somebody selling the 'socialist worker' and spat in his face. She was so disgusted. If you live or have lived in a socialist country you would have felt the same. You know nothing!!

Live in North Korea if you want to live in a socialist EUtopia!

Now back to the football... something you might know about! ;) Maybe we can talk about the players union or the bosman ruling?
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No government is perfect and never will be but you seem to have a right chip on your shoulder about labour. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong, you've both made valid points. Maybe you shouldn't be discussing politics with such a rock solid attitude to your political beliefs.

I sense this thread is to close do to your opposition of anyone who fails to conform to your opinions.
 
Bri And His Funky Phallus said:
No government is perfect and never will be but you seem to have a right chip on your shoulder about labour. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong, you've both made valid points. Maybe you shouldn't be discussing politics with such a rock solid attitude to your political beliefs.

I sense this thread is to close do to your opposition of anyone who fails to conform to your opinions.
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That's not the case Bri. I'm no Tory. Far from it. I grew up in Thatchers Britain. But these Union people dissing Ashley for having staff on zero hour contract's haven't a clue. If they ran a business on small margins then they'd think differently. How many high street shops have bitten the dust lately due to the internet, wages and especially high rents? Put on top of that crippling parking charges from local councils (take a look at the once great Frederick street or king street in south shields) both ruined by ex union labour councillors on STC council.

They all surprisingly fail to mention that the contracted workers for sports direct are getting a very nice hefty bonus.

My dad (a factory worker) always used to laugh about the Councillors in South Tyneside (Edith Battye who used to sleep through every meeting and the guy for Whiteleas who's name i couldn't remember who couldn't read or write and they would pay somebody to do it for him!!) The grip on the old north east that the Unions had ruined the local economy, closed the manufacturing and pits (ok thatcher has son input) and the local voters have ensured that the North East is kept in the dark ages buy repeatedly voting them in.

Great article today on the BBC website regarding the British car industry and how in 1974 it was the German's main rival in Europe.... then what happenend?

England..... Wrong tea in the canteen lads......STRIKE!!!!
Germany.....Wrong tea in the canteen Herrs...... We will trink Kaffee!!
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
That's not the case Bri. I'm no Tory. Far from it. I grew up in Thatchers Britain. But these Union people dissing Ashley for having staff on zero hour contract's haven't a clue. If they ran a business on small margins then they'd think differently. How many high street shops have bitten the dust lately due to the internet, wages and especially high rents? Put on top of that crippling parking charges from local councils (take a look at the once great Frederick street or king street in south shields) both ruined by ex union labour councillors on STC council.

My dad (a factory worker) always used to laugh about the Councillors in South Tyneside (Edith Battye who used to sleep through every meeting and the guy for Whiteleas who's name i couldn't remember who couldn't read or write and they would pay somebody to do it for him!!) The grip on the old north east that the Unions had ruined the local economy, closed the manufacturing and pits (ok thatcher has son input) and the local voters have ensured that the North East is kept in the dark ages buy repeatedly voting them in.

Great article today on the BBC website regarding the British car industry and how in 1974 it was the German's main rival in Europe.... then what happenend?

England..... Wrong tea in the canteen lads......STRIKE!!!!
Germany.....Wrong tea in the canteen Herrs...... We will trink Kaffee!!
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Not saying you are fella, and you're clearly a passionate person but we're all brothers on here. Politics aren't worth the friction it brings on this board. There's loads of politics forums out there which you be in your element if you signed up. But not on here mate eh? <ok>:)
 
concrete tony said:
A slightly warped view of the world blaming unions for everything?

Clearly you must hate any staff you have and despise them for griping.

Crack on Scrooge
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Or a slightly warped view blaming the bosses for everything?

The staff i have here are paid 2 1/2 times the minimum wage, get free healthcare, 28 days holiday a year. In reply they work hard. It's ideal. They don't stop working 'down tools' and ask for anything because the don't need to. If they ever were unhappy they can talk to me and if need be go elsewhere. That's how business works.

It's amazing how many council workers have time to sit on the internet during the day... or is this official union business?
 
Washysafc said:
To answer your questions

I am a trade unionist and I believe that we are a more civilised community if we have a democratic economy which offers a balance between capital and labour.

Collective action in the form of trade unions are the only means to level up the playing field.
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Then you'll know damn fine well the cost that excessive demands puts on businesses. maybe your business is in a sector that can afford this but in other sectors jobs are lost. Maybe better to have 20 million unemployed if the rest that are employed manage to get the unions to agree to less hours. Look at France at the moment it's economic suicide.

You know as well as me that the main problem the country has is with the 'career' trade unionists... If you've ever lived in London and had to put up with Bob Crow for months on end. Holding the people of London to ransom by holding near illegal strikes. If you are older the 40 as well you'll remember the blackouts and rubbish mountains of the 70's caused by these Communist idiots.

Business isn't like the public sector.. The government either borrows or raises taxes in order to pay for public sector demands (i cant afford a pension as i'm paying for a town hall workers pension) , in the private sector businesses close, go out of business or in many cases relocate to lower Labour cost countries.

Let your Unions bleat on let them make demands and raise costs to companies but don't come crying to me when all of the call centers are in India and everything you own is made in China, India or Poland and all of the shops are online because Mike Ashley had closed his down and made x 1000's redundant.
 
The majority of call centres are in India and most things we buy ARE made in China!!! We have very little manufacturing industry in this country thanks to successive governments failing to help the manufacturing sector going back to thatcher. The loss of manufacturing is not the fault of trade unionists.

Not sure what your problem with public sector workers is? Clearly you have swallowed the rubbish fed to you by the Tories who are aiming to divide and conquer the working classes.

You say if you don't help pay towards the economy you shouldn't have a say???? This is where you are completely wrong. The public sector provides a service and it is a job that needs doing. You seem to begrudge these people having a pension. Why? Nobody on here begrudges you your business? Just because you don't have a pension nobody should have one?

Maybe all public sector workers should just walk away from their jobs and attempt to get jobs in the private sector to make you happy.

Let us not forget that lots of private industries make vast profits from the public purse. Lots of multinational companies take advantage of very low taxes and investment from the public purse to entice them here.

I think you also believe that the "we're in this together" means other people.
 
concrete tony said:
The majority of call centres are in India and most things we buy ARE made in China!!! We have very little manufacturing industry in this country thanks to successive governments failing to help the manufacturing sector going back to thatcher. The loss of manufacturing is not the fault of trade unionists.

Not sure what your problem with public sector workers is? Clearly you have swallowed the rubbish fed to you by the Tories who are aiming to divide and conquer the working classes.

You say if you don't help pay towards the economy you shouldn't have a say???? This is where you are completely wrong. The public sector provides a service and it is a job that needs doing. You seem to begrudge these people having a pension. Why? Nobody on here begrudges you your business? Just because you don't have a pension nobody should have one?

Maybe all public sector workers should just walk away from their jobs and attempt to get jobs in the private sector to make you happy.

Let us not forget that lots of private industries make vast profits from the public purse. Lots of multinational companies take advantage of very low taxes and investment from the public purse to entice them here.

I think you also believe that the "we're in this together" means other people.
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You're obviously not an economist.

OVERSPENDING -> HIGHER DEBT -> HIGH COSTS -> HIGHER TAXES -> HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT!!!


Look mate I don't begrudge anybody anything. Privitise the public sector and let them know what it's like to earn a living. We all know cases of public sector wasting money (i know of a government department that was paying 300quid a pop for train fares to london so the staff could get a free breakfast and car parking on the train!!!!. Where does this money come from???? It all eventually has to be paid for and it's not the public servants that suffer when the **** hits the fans....never is.

The size of the pension black hole in the public sector will eventually have to lead to a rise in income tax.. which will hit spending...which will hit jobs...but not in the public sector (never is!!). Simple economics. You can't spend more then what you earn and if you do one day you'll be in big s!!. (please note Mr Brown)

The only way to get the UK out of the mess that it is in is to claw back public spending and (your right) use the excess gained to boost manufacturing (including training people to do real skills... not some of the courses that new labours mates put into universities) , the populous will also have to curb and call for high wages/better working conditions until the country is back on it's feet.

Or, do you want us to borrow our way out of the mess like Greece and Ireland? Eventually the lenders will stop lending or the rates they will charge will cripple the economy for our childrens lifetime? (If the country has a rubbish credit rating it effects all of us through higher lending costs.)

To go on about being force fed by the Tories is rubbish. Let me try to get it into you again... IM NO FAN OF THE TORIES...but even less of NEW LIE_BOUR. What the UK needs is a new political party which looks after the people of the UK's interests. The Public schools and Unions have done nothing but create misery for decades and it's normally the working class that suffer the most because of it.
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
You're obviously not an economist.

OVERSPENDING -> HIGHER DEBT -> HIGH COSTS -> HIGHER TAXES -> HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT!!!


Look mate I don't begrudge anybody anything. Privitise the public sector and let them know what it's like to earn a living. We all know cases of public sector wasting money (i know of a government department that was paying 300quid a pop for train fares to london so the staff could get a free breakfast and car parking on the train!!!!. Where does this money come from???? It all eventually has to@ be paid for and it's not the public servants that suffer when the **** hits the fans....never is..
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You're kidding right?
You say you're no Tory yet you've swallowed their anti-public sector propaganda. I'm a nurse I haven't had a pay increase in nearly 5 years yet my pension contributions have increased with the promise of a lower payout. Unsocial working rates have been reduced by as much as a third. My wage in real terms is going down. 3 wards I have worked on in the last 4 years have closed with the loss of a number of nursing and ancillary staff posts, not to mention the loss of patient services.
I agree that public money is squandered in most public sector areas and it pisses me off as much as anyone. But saying public sector workers don't suffer is plain ignorant.
By the way I've worked in the private sector too and on turning up for work have been told to go home as there's no work today. Then received a call the same afternoon to com back in. I've been finished on an agency contract short of being eligible for paid holidays then rehired a couple of weeks later on a new temporary contract and back to square one. I sometimes seriously wish the entire public sector would be privatised just so people like you would find out the true costs. When you're health care is dependent on your wealth or your insurance company. When your police force is ran by G4S. When your armed forces are mercenaries fighting for their pay packet not your country. Oh but at least you'll save 8% on your taxes.
 
Bumblebore said:
You're kidding right?
You say you're no Tory yet you've swallowed their anti-public sector propaganda. I'm a nurse I haven't had a pay increase in nearly 5 years yet my pension contributions have increased with the promise of a lower payout. Unsocial working rates have been reduced by as much as a third. My wage in real terms is going down. 3 wards I have worked on in the last 4 years have closed with the loss of a number of nursing and ancillary staff posts, not to mention the loss of patient services.
I agree that public money is squandered in most public sector areas and it pisses me off as much as anyone. But saying public sector workers don't suffer is plain ignorant.
By the way I've worked in the private sector too and on turning up for work have been told to go home as there's no work today. Then received a call the same afternoon to com back in. I've been finished on an agency contract short of being eligible for paid holidays then rehired a couple of weeks later on a new temporary contract and back to square one. I sometimes seriously wish the entire public sector would be privatised just so people like you would find out the true costs. When you're health care is dependent on your wealth or your insurance company. When your police force is ran by G4S. When your armed forces are mercenaries fighting for their pay packet not your country. Oh but at least you'll save 8% on your taxes.
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By the way the part of the Public sector spending 300quid a pop on rail fares was the NHS ;)

I haven't had a pay rise for the last 3 years. Then again the company I work for are going through a hard time and I fully understand. That's life.
(i could start a union and put them out of business!!!... what a class idea!)

Having a mother who was an NHS nurse for 45 years I can fully understand where you are coming from. It's amazing that jobs like Teaching and Nursing used to be vocations and people who did them did it because that was their 'calling' in life. Let me know what Labour did which was so wonderful in the NHS during those GOLDEN years in power. Did you see the NHS mega computer system? (how much wasted), was the management structure in the hospital reduced?, did you see a reduction in paperwork? i'd love to know what Labour did for you. When was the last time you as a public employee were put on short hours or given minimum hour contracts?

It's not a case of saving 8%, it's a case in the real world of trying not to bankrupt the country by excessive demands.

I wonder how the Greek nurses are getting paid this month? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/hospital-workers-and-doctors-join-mass-greek-strike-8282895.html

.............Mr Papanikolaou, who has been working for over 20 years, has seen his monthly wage drop to &#8364;1,330, from &#8364;2,030 in 2010. He worries that the spending cuts will reduce his income by another 25 per cent.

As a country we have to start living within our means before something drastic happens.
 
So there are no excessive wages or expenses in the private sector then?

The banks spring to mind and before you say it's their money, well err no they have defrauded customers I.e you and me to achieve their quick buck. They have pretty much bankrupt the world (not public sector workers and trade unionists) how many of those doing this (across the world ) have gone to prison or even been sacked.

Directors are something this country needs to tackle in both the public and private sectors, those at the top in these areas are the ones making vast amounts of money for what they do. They claim the most in expenses and perks whilst the rest of us scrabble for the chicken feed.

You will of course note that the economy was growing when labour were voted out. Due to the Tory policy of slash and burn we got a double dip recession.

I would also look to renationalise the utilities to protect the tax payer from being ripped off like we currently are to create vast profits for their shareholders.
 
Can't be arsed to read the thread...


But basically, have a job or be on the dole?
 
sanddancersoftheworlduniteandtakeover said:
By the way the part of the Public sector spending 300quid a pop on rail fares was the NHS ;)

I haven't had a pay rise for the last 3 years. Then again the company I work for are going through a hard time and I fully understand. That's life.
(i could start a union and put them out of business!!!... what a class idea!)

Having a mother who was an NHS nurse for 45 years I can fully understand where you are coming from. It's amazing that jobs like Teaching and Nursing used to be vocations and people who did them did it because that was their 'calling' in life. Let me know what Labour did which was so wonderful in the NHS during those GOLDEN years in power. Did you see the NHS mega computer system? (how much wasted), was the management structure in the hospital reduced?, did you see a reduction in paperwork? i'd love to know what Labour did for you. When was the last time you as a public employee were put on short hours or given minimum hour contracts?

It's not a case of saving 8%, it's a case in the real world of trying not to bankrupt the country by excessive demands.

I wonder how the Greek nurses are getting paid this month? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/hospital-workers-and-doctors-join-mass-greek-strike-8282895.html

.............Mr Papanikolaou, who has been working for over 20 years, has seen his monthly wage drop to &#8364;1,330, from &#8364;2,030 in 2010. He worries that the spending cuts will reduce his income by another 25 per cent.

As a country we have to start living within our means before something drastic happens.
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Where did I mention Labour? And I was agreeing with you about the waste of public money. However my point was to call you out on your claim that we in the public sector "never suffer" when **** hits the fan is complete bullshit. Colleagues of mine have lost their jobs recently and I'm still waiting to hear if my job is safe.
There is good and bad in both public and private sector. To make generalised statements is foolish.
 
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