The Gaston Ramirez thread

[CBK]

Lallana who was meant to be our captain dropped his head, something ramirez never did even after he overhit about 10 freekicks

Interesting point. I'd add that Ramirez often didn't look overly bothered about messing very basic things up like corners/freekicks/easy passes. He just sort of... drifts.

I think the first few games will make up the management's mind about him.

I presume he will meet up with the rest of the squad after having a break after the Confed cup? So that's going to put him behind the rest of the squad, which may also count against him.

 

[lamby]

We shouldn't forget what a massive upheaveal it was for him. He's still young and I'm confident he'll be a lot more consistemnt this season.

 

[Dan]

The problem with bringing the fee into it is when it has an impact on opinions of whether or not he should be in the first 11. It clearly does make a difference - several have suggested he be dropped/shipped off, while almost nobody has said the same of Lallana. It can be argued who was better out of Ramirez and Lallana, but there certainly wasn't a clear difference between the two. It's not like Lallana has no sale value, so why only suggest getting shot of Ramirez when he's younger and has a higher ceiling?

 

[CBK]

Because this is a thread about Gaston?

Feel free to start up a thread about selling Lallana if you feel strongly about it.

I presume people are talking more about Gaston because there's always been more transfer rumours about him, plus he's actually playing football at the moment, so we can make judgements about his performances.

 

[Dan]

Because this is a thread about Gaston?

Feel free to start up a thread about selling Lallana if you feel strongly about it.

I presume people are talking more about Gaston because there's always been more transfer rumours about him, plus he's actually playing football at the moment, so we can make judgements about his performances.

I obviously wasn't talking about this thread specifically. I'm talking about through the whole season and the multiple threads that became about what to do with Gaston, which caused the creation of this thread.

 

[Lovelocum]

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE PRICE TAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it was, we'd have a team of Chaplows. It's about playing to his ability.

I put that in there to pre-empt all the people who bang on about 12m quid down the drain. I agree the question is "is he the best player we can field in that position". Answer- yes. We are not in a position where we need to sell him to buy others.

His price tag brought an unreasonably high expectation that some people can't get over. I think he will start to shine next season.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Because this is a thread about Gaston?

Feel free to start up a thread about selling Lallana if you feel strongly about it.

I presume people are talking more about Gaston because there's always been more transfer rumours about him, plus he's actually playing football at the moment, so we can make judgements about his performances.

I'd suggest there's more rumours about him because he's better, and those that perhaps know more about football than many of us recognise something in the lad.

 

[Lovelocum]

The problem with bringing the fee into it is when it has an impact on opinions of whether or not he should be in the first 11. It clearly does make a difference - several have suggested he be dropped/shipped off, while almost nobody has said the same of Lallana. It can be argued who was better out of Ramirez and Lallana, but there certainly wasn't a clear difference between the two. It's not like Lallana has no sale value, so why only suggest getting shot of Ramirez when he's younger and has a higher ceiling?

The difference is lallana has had several great seasons with us so people give him far more leeway. People forget that he has stepped up to PL and we may not see the same player tearing apart airfields week in week out. So yes your suggestion was valid. I say keep both.

Maybe Gastons high ceilings are creating a cold, draughty environment and these living conditions are affecting him?

 

[Puck]

Assuming our long term aim is the top six I wouldn't be hugely upset if we sold Lallana. I don't think he'll ever be good enough to be more than a squad player at a top six club.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

I have been a little disappointed with Adam...but he has no doubt been on a learning curve this season. A second season in the PL will be revealing.

 

[Lff]

Ramirez and Lallana. Both skilful players, both new to PL, both had injury problems last year. Both have potential. This season will be massive for both of them one way or another.

 

[CBK]

Right now, I have more faith in Lallana being able to UP his game for the Premiership than I have Ramirez being able to focus his ability.

Both can improve in different ways, think Adam is more aware of what he needs to do though.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Right now, I have more faith in Lallana being able to UP his game for the Premiership than I have Ramirez being able to focus his ability.

Both can improve in different ways, think Adam is more aware of what he needs to do though.

That might be very close to the truth in this. We shall see, both need/deserve the chance to deliver.

 

[Wisescummer]

I think that either way Ramirez wont be with us next at the start of the 2014/15 season. Either he will continue to be ****e-to-average and get shipped back to Italy, Spain or Brazil at a knockdown price, or be really good, have a good world cup, and engineer a move to a big Italian club for around £15 million.

 

[Beef]

Right now, I have more faith in Lallana being able to UP his game for the Premiership than I have Ramirez being able to focus his ability.

Both can improve in different ways, think Adam is more aware of what he needs to do tho

But there's being aware and actually being good enough to do it.

 

[Beef]

I think that either way Ramirez wont be with us next at the start of the 2014/15 season. Either he will continue to be ****e-to-average and get shipped back to Italy, Spain or Brazil at a knockdown price, or be really good, have a good world cup, and engineer a move to a big Italian club for around £15 million.

If he becomes really good we would want more then a 3m profit.

 

[Wisescummer]

I'm basing the valuation on a player with only two years left on his contract. Plus it wont be a club with real money coming in for him, because imo he's never gonna be good enough to play for a barcelone, Madrid, Bayern Munich or top four club in England. It'll be somebody like Inter, Milan, Juve or Napoli who come in for him. When we signed him for £12 million I thought we were buying at close to the top of the market and we wouldn't see much of that back (same with Rodriguez actually).

 

[pass the football]

Let's look at some of the evidence and come to a conclusion based upon them....

1) He's not been a guaranteed starter in the Saints team under two different managers

No-one is a guaranteed starter. Ramirez has been given more faith in this regard than most other players though, by both managers.

2) When he signed he was told "we will build a team around you" Not happened.

It was attempted, and it may yet come to fruition. The fact is though that he has been injured or unavailable too often to rely on him that much.

3) Reportedly his agent waived his fee to make the deal to us happen

And?

4) There continues to be constant Newspaper gossip of him being linked back to Italy (see point 3 for probably source)

That's not surprising, he's played in Italy before so they're aware of him. There's constant gossip linking a lot of players to us as well, but that doesn't mean there's anything to it.

5) If he was happy at Saints, would he be dropping quotes here and there raising doubt on his future?

If he wasn't happy would he have publicly stated he was happy and has no plans to move?

6) If Saints are to cut our losses, then doing it this transfer window would probably see us take the smallest hit loss wise. Leave until January or next summer with a player who continues to be not producing and is grumpy with it and his market value will drop.

Unless of course his form improves.

7) If we are looking at players in Italy or Spain, then Ramirez could possibly be part of an exchange deal to suit all parties

For me, that adds up to why I think there's a greater than 50% chance of him not being at Saints by 31st Aug.

Could well be wrong, he may start the season on fire and I hope he does. Just feels to me that we may never see the best of him, not for Saints not trying & giving him a chance, but because Ramirez just lacks that hunger to match his talent.

Respectfully, most of that evidence is built on your own assumptions that he isn't happy here and that we would entertain the idea of selling him, neither of which I believe there is any evidence for.

 

[Beef]

I'm basing the valuation on a player with only two years left on his contract. Plus it wont be a club with real money coming in for him, because imo he's never gonna be good enough to play for a barcelone, Madrid, Bayern Munich or top four club in England. It'll be somebody like Inter, Milan, Juve or Napoli who come in for him. When we signed him for £12 million I thought we were buying at close to the top of the market and we wouldn't see much of that back (same with Rodriguez actually).

So one season(if you can call it a whole season) has proved to you how good he is? All I can say is glad you aren't a football manager.

 

[fatletiss]

Isn't it good to read some opinions that are thought out and expressed well, without a massive slagging off of either of the mentioned players. The comparison with Lallana is interesting as I there are similarities in terms of under performance. It is mouth-watering to consider both of these players starting the season on fire with the right attitude, performance and knowledge conversion from their first season in the Prem... I just know that life isn't like that.