Spa Francorchamp: King of a handful of tracks?

[Max Whiplash]

It's actually pretty good for a Tilke track. Law of averages say he has to get one right. Just don't hold your breath for another.

I'd have died long ago if I held my breath for that! But, in Tilke's defence, perhaps it's the only time he was given a decent piece of land to design a track on... I don't know the answer to this but it's just a thought.

 

[cosicave]

Right, here is a summation of nominations from F1 standard circuits so far (For simplicity and consistency with the idea of this thread, I have included Fuji - which is up to F1 standard - but none of the other 'non-F1' tracks).

These are the nominations, in rough order of merit (since I did not include a poll, there is a degree of interpretation in the postings of this thread)…
Roughly equal enthusiasm was shown for Spa, Suzuka, and Silverstone; with Monza and Interlagos coming up next. Behind these were nominations for Monaco, Fuji and Nürburgring.

So, here's a subjective attempt at being objective!:

Equal 1st are the 'S's:
Spa
Suzuka
Silverstone

In equal 4th, we have:
Monza
Monaco
Interlagos

'Also-rans' were:
Nürburgring and Fuji

Conclusion:
If Spa is no longer absolute King, its popularity with participating not606 members suggests that in general, we still regard it as a prominent Royal !

 

[Nazara]

I'd have died long ago if I held my breath for that! But, in Tilke's defence, perhaps it's the only time he was given a decent piece of land to design a track on... I don't know the answer to this but it's just a thought.

Some of Tilke's track aren't bad.
Malaysia and China are pretty good. Korea and India are decent tracks. Valencia proved it can host a good race.

 

[cosicave]

It's perhaps unfortunate that Tilke's reputation came about during F1's dreariest period; with advances in aerodynamics progressively neutralising the action. Safety concerns increased linearly with cornering speeds, for which many circuits needed to be altered and others to be designed from scratch. And although several of his circuits are dull as dishwater, I agree with Naz (above).

What I think is the biggest travesty (tragedy?) is that Tilke has never faced competition from a rival designer (because he's mates with Ecclestone?). Little wonder his tracks tend to have the same blue fingerprint.

 

[Vilsmeier-Haack Reaction]

Right, here is a summation of nominations from F1 standard circuits so far (For simplicity and consistency with the idea of this thread, I have included Fuji - which is up to F1 standard - but none of the other 'non-F1' tracks).

These are the nominations, in rough order of merit (since I did not include a poll, there is a degree of interpretation in the postings of this thread)…
Roughly equal enthusiasm was shown for Spa, Suzuka, and Silverstone; with Monza and Interlagos coming up next. Behind these were nominations for Monaco, Fuji and Nürburgring.

So, here's a subjective attempt at being objective!:

Equal 1st are the 'S's:
Spa
Suzuka
Silverstone

In equal 4th, we have:
Monza
Monaco
Interlagos

'Also-rans' were:
Nürburgring and Fuji

Conclusion:
If Spa is no longer absolute King, its popularity with participating not606 members suggests that in general, we still regard it as a prominent Royal !

Allow me to change the results of that by firmly giving my vote to Spa out of the current F1 tracks. Old hockenheim would have come second

 

[cosicave]

Allow me to change the results of that by firmly giving my vote to Spa out of the current F1 tracks. Old hockenheim would have come second

It seems you've tipped the balance then, Pampa!

However, let's see if this 'result' is maintained by the end of the season, eh? It's just possible that with Spa up next, other tracks are currently at a disadvantage!

But with your casting vote, 'King' Spa clings on to its Throne! (for now at least&#8230

 

[allsaintchris.]

I can't vote for old Hockenheim as a great track. It was just a blast of four fast sections, punctuated by chicances and an infield section which was pretty boring.

It didn't test the drivers, most found it quite dull and quite a lot of races were processional. Yes it was fast, but old-style Silverstone had a faster average lap speed. Now that was a drivers track. Club corner at 160mph anyone? Oh go on then!

 

[cosicave]

Yes, I'm with you on that, ASC.
Old Hock was a dangerous blast through a thick wood with trees for the Reaper to play hide and seek. But although a true 'big-balls' circuit, it was not particularly imaginative. Oddly enough, probably its most challenging corner is/was not dissimilar to Club*, although it is tighter and requires some braking: I refer to the right hander 'Sachskurve' (still in use where the track enters the stadium section), which was a much bigger challenge with the approach speeds from the old track's straight.

But I agree. For me, old Hock was never quite a true great.

*To some extent this might also be said of Turn 1 'Nordkurve', though its character is quite different.

 

[allsaintchris.]

Yes, I'm with you on that, ASC.
Old Hock was a dangerous blast through a thick wood with trees for the Reaper to play hide and seek. But although a true 'big-balls' circuit, it was not particularly imaginative. Oddly enough, probably its most challenging corner is/was not dissimilar to Club*, although it is tighter and requires some braking: I refer to the right hander 'Sachskurve' (still in use where the track enters the stadium section), which was a much bigger challenge with the approach speeds from the old track's straight.

But I agree. For me, old Hock was never quite a true great.

*To some extent this might also be said of Turn 1 'Nordkurve', though its character is quite different.

I guess those two quick curves would have been quite a handful for drivers with the super-skinny wings they were running. For me it was just a power circuit. If you had BHP you'd win!

 

[cosicave]

Yes. Both of these corners have been tamed by aerodynamics to some extent. However, prior to such technological advances, cornering speeds were necessarily slower!

 

[StoneRosesRam]

Love Spa but personally feel year by year they are slowly making it easier for the drivers, the exit from La source being made wider, the run off area at Pouhon and the changing of the bus stop chicane has made it easier for drivers to make a mistake and rejoin the race with no real punishment

 

[cosicave]

Love Spa but personally feel year by year they are slowly making it easier for the drivers, the exit from La source being made wider, the run off area at Pouhon and the changing of the bus stop chicane has made it easier for drivers to make a mistake and rejoin the race with no real punishment

Agreed.
I guess some of what's being said here is that for a track to be a great one, it has to be both challenging and punishing. I said earlier that safety has increased linearly with cornering speeds; but actually, I should have said "at the square of cornering speeds"!

Motor racing should not be a tame affair: its very core is founded on its dangers. Keep these dangers reasonable of course; but KEEP THEM ! – at least to some extent.
Blandness is anathema to racers and spectators alike.

 

[Vilsmeier-Haack Reaction]

I loved old Hockenheim. Maybe wouldn't be the same without the scream of the V10s. They really sounded haunting disappearing into the forest. A lot of what makes a track good for me is the atmosphere and presence surrounding it and old hockenheim had it in bags.

The race in 2000 was its finest moment

 

[SgtBhaji]

I loved old Hockenheim. Maybe wouldn't be the same without the scream of the V10s. They really sounded haunting disappearing into the forest. A lot of what makes a track good for me is the atmosphere and presence surrounding it and old hockenheim had it in bags.

The race in 2000 was its finest moment

So many tracks look the same now and have similar features... It may just be old age kicking in, but many tracks just lack character for me. You can look at many and barely distinguish one from the other it seems. Flat, featureless, vast tarmac run off (not wanting to enter a safety debate) and mickey mouse corners that really add nothing to the spectacle.

I'd trade some of those to have the old Hockenheim back. Better a dull race seeing cars top 200mph blasting through a forest that on a glorified go kart track.

I'm done moaning now.

 

[McFerrari]

The greatest track of all time. That is why the likes of Schumacher and Clark all excelled on this track. It rewards greatness. It is holy. It is something of a Jerusalem.

 

[nh-f1]

The old circuit, yes. The tilke one, no thanks.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/04/29/silverstone-boss-explains-why-they-didnt-use-tilke-for-arena-track-upgrades/

Tilke didn't design the new layout for Silverstone. They knew he would ruin it

 

[RoadRunner]

Right, here is a summation of nominations from F1 standard circuits so far (For simplicity and consistency with the idea of this thread, I have included Fuji - which is up to F1 standard - but none of the other 'non-F1' tracks).

These are the nominations, in rough order of merit (since I did not include a poll, there is a degree of interpretation in the postings of this thread)…
Roughly equal enthusiasm was shown for Spa, Suzuka, and Silverstone; with Monza and Interlagos coming up next. Behind these were nominations for Monaco, Fuji and Nürburgring.

So, here's a subjective attempt at being objective!:

Equal 1st are the 'S's:
Spa
Suzuka
Silverstone

In equal 4th, we have:
Monza
Monaco
Interlagos

'Also-rans' were:
Nürburgring and Fuji

Conclusion:
If Spa is no longer absolute King, its popularity with participating not606 members suggests that in general, we still regard it as a prominent Royal !

No Montreal or Albert Park? Montreal has always and will always be my favourite track. It may not be particularly challenging, but I like the odd combination of corners and weird chicanes. As far as scenery and backdrop go, it is second to none IMO. It's classy, but it doesn't over do it like Yas Marina or Singapore. In order to be one of the King tracks, a racetrack IMO needs at least one corner that it is going to be remembered for. Spa has Eau Rouge, Suzuka has 130R, Montreal has the WOC. I think this is a big factor in why virtually none of the Tilke tracks are considered worthy.

 

[cosicave]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/04/2...rack-upgrades/

Tilke didn't design the new layout for Silverstone. They knew he would ruin it

Thanks nh-f1. I'd hoped someone else might pick up on this. I did not want Tilke to become a diversion or focus of the thread; it occurs too often! But you're right; and part of the reason may be contained in RR's post (highlighted):

No Montreal or Albert Park? Montreal has always and will always be my favourite track. It may not be particularly challenging, but I like the odd combination of corners and weird chicanes. As far as scenery and backdrop go, it is second to none IMO. It's classy, but it doesn't over do it like Yas Marina or Singapore. In order to be one of the King tracks, a racetrack IMO needs at least one corner that it is going to be remembered for. Spa has Eau Rouge, Suzuka has 130R, Montreal has the WOC. I think this is a big factor in why virtually none of the Tilke tracks are considered worthy.

I agree, RR. And although I'm perhaps biased, I truly believe Silverstone has several such 'memorable' corners! The new layout has been praised by pretty well all F1 drivers, past and present; and has also met with the same approval from Moto GP.