Assem Allam

[petersaxton]

What facts are incorrect? Are you saying Chelsea and Manchester City are breaking Company Law?

Insolvency means that you can't pay your debts as they fall due. It is not a mathematical calculation on the balance sheet. Auditors will ask large creditors for confirmation that they don't intend to ask for repayment in the short/medium term.

Didn't Chelsea convert the owners loans to shares? I'm sure he will have lent Chelsea plenty more since then, though!

 

[Dr.Stanley O'Google, HCFC]

What facts are incorrect? Are you saying Chelsea and Manchester City are breaking Company Law?

Company Law isn't the issue. It's the phenomenal amount of money poured in by millionaire/billionaire owners, together with dodgy 'sponsorship' deals, that makes football totally unlike any other normal business. As you well know - so why accuse other people of sarcasm?

 

[petersaxton]

Pointless trying to exdplain how best practice can only be universally applied where there is some form of governing structure to support it and at the moment there isn't.

That sounds like you don't know the answer.

 

[StrovolosTiger]

The fact that was incorrect is that you suggested there are no laws to comply with when there are, company law applies to football in exactly the same way as it does any other business.

Chelsea and Man City I am unsure about, i'd have to read their financial statements, they due to their insanely rich owners will probably have converted their debt so will technically not appear insolvent. Man Utd on the other hand I believe were shown to be trading while insolvent as are many clubs in the English game, can't remember who the study was by but the information is out there if you care to look. There are as with every law loopholes to exploit and I can only assume football clubs manage to exploit these loopholes. The auditors of the football clubs also need to be held more accountable as it is their duty to ensure that if a company is preparing its accounts on a going concern basis that it genuinely is a going concern which a business that doesn't have enough cash and short tem assets to cover its liabilities is not.

And you say I'm patronising!! Of course there is Company Law, one would have thought that would have gone without saying. What I am saying is there is no law to stop Billionaires ploughing their millions into their football clubs without any thought to normal business practices, ie. turning a profit.

The basic principle here is there are different kinds of insolvency. If a club is insolvent because it's owner has loaned it money without any likelihood they will recall that loan then that really isn't insolvency.

 

[petersaxton]

Company Law isn't the issue. It's the phenomenal amount of money poured in by millionaire/billionaire owners, together with dodgy 'sponsorship' deals, that makes football totally unlike any other normal business. As you well know - so why accuse other people of sarcasm?

Financial fair play will have an effect on that. I hope UEFA deal effectively with the sponsorship deals. Will Liverpool be able to throw money at their problems because they are not in Europe now and then cut back on expenditure once they get near the top 4?

 

[Dr.Stanley O'Google, HCFC]

The argument(s) in this thread are getting to be circular

I know a man
What man?
A man with a power
What power?
The power of hoodoo
Who do?
You do
I do what?
You remind me of a man
What man?
A man with a power
What power?
and on....and on...and on...

 

[Frank Fingers]

That cover photo is embarrassing. Why anyone would want to associate themselves with that is beyond me.

As for fans being represented, is there any fair way of doing it? At all? Unless you regularly surveyed every season ticket holder, I'm not sure how you could get a fair representation.

You go and look at their freewebs page and you're presented with smiling pictures of Ibrahim Sonko, Ian Dowie and Caleb Folan. Ummm... right, fine, think I'll form my own branch

 

[Stuart Blampey]

Any time, I thought that might have been a little high level for you but i'm happy you grasped it.

Thankyou Peter.

I was actually being sarcastic as a response to your somewhat hectoring and patronising post.

 

[TygerTyger]

So, if he was an accountant for 10 years out of 72 it makes him a massively experienced accountant. You could say he's a child because he was a child for longer than he was an accountant. If you had said a "massively experienced businessman" I would have agreed with you. You could say that Alan Sugar is a market trader because he did it sometime in the past.

You don't need to tell me about economics and accounting degrees. I have an accounting degree and the accounting done on an economics and accounting degree is mickey mouse compared to that done on an accounting degree.

Just because you feel safe behind a keyboard and screen doesn't mean you should swear and be abusive in every post.

Really? Where from and when?

and at what point did you learn that the "accounting done on an economics and accounting degree is mickey mouse compared to that done on an accounting degree."?

 

[TygerTyger]

My brother is an Accountant.

Really? Chartered or Certified?

Neither..........Turf.

 

[The Omega Man]

Who owns Hull City?
Allamhouse Limited
Who was the biggest creditor in the last published account?
Allamhouse Limited

If any accountant can explain how that is anything but a positive situation is beyond me.

Assam Allam was appointed to his role at Tempest Marine by who?
The bank that was its biggest creditor. His role was to turn a failing business into a solvent business.

Could the question on betting odds have been "how do they make Bruce the favourite" how does that work?" Now that would fit with Bruce not ever being in the running.

Fez you are so ****ing right.

 

[petersaxton]

Really? Where from and when?

and at what point did you learn that the "accounting done on an economics and accounting degree is mickey mouse compared to that done on an accounting degree."?

City of London Polytechnic 1974 - 1977. It was the first pure accounting degree in the country.

Before my degree I investigated all courses with any significant accounting content. Over the years I have kept up to a certain extent with accounting education. My final year marks were based on ten 3 hour exams in one week at the end of the year. Coursework didn't contribute to the marks and there were no multiple choice questions.

 

[petersaxton]

Who owns Hull City?
Allamhouse Limited
Who was the biggest creditor in the last published account?
Allamhouse Limited

If any accountant can explain how that is anything but a positive situation is beyond me.

When a business has creditors a lot greater than it's assets there is a worry. The creditors could demand repayment of the loans.
It would be safer if the loans were converted into shares but it won't be done because of the hope that sometime in the future the Allams may want to get money out of the company and repayment of the loans will be tax free unlike the other two ways of getting money out of the company, ie. salary and dividends.

 

[DMD]

When a business has creditors a lot greater than it's assets there is a worry. The creditors could demand repayment of the loans.
It would be safer if the loans were converted into shares but it won't be done because of the hope that sometime in the future the Allams may want to get money out of the company and repayment of the loans will be tax free unlike the other two ways of getting money out of the company, ie. salary and dividends.

How are those loans accounted for in the new financial rules? Are we better having a huge debt, no debt or something in between? Does the debt being to a company associated with the Club chairman make a difference to how it sits with the rules?

 

[petersaxton]

This is an article on the rules

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17843511

There's no rules about chairmen per se, it's more to do with owners.

<<<And an "equity investment" is allowed, cash that can be put into the club by an owner or benefactor by way of equity, that is, cash for shares rather than debt.

In other words, the money cannot be loaned to the club by the owner.>>>

It would appear that an owner can subscribe for shares but can't lend the club money over certain limits. I would expect that there can't be circular transactions via friends or associates, either.

<<<In Leagues One and Two, there are constraints for clubs with regard to the proportion of turnover that can be spent on wages.>>>

The rules seem quite hit and miss though if anybody is really trying to get around them.

I prefer the rules for UEFA Financial Fair Play Regulations which only apply to European competition.

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Clublicensing/01/50/09/12/1500912_DOWNLOAD.pdf

They are much more detailed and complying with them may be onerous for a League 2 club.

It seems like clubs in the Premier League but not competing for Europe can do whatever they want.

 

[Stuart Blampey]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........................

 

[Fez]

Who owns Hull City?
Allamhouse Limited
Who was the biggest creditor in the last published account?
Allamhouse Limited

If any accountant can explain how that is anything but a positive situation is beyond me.

Assam Allam was appointed to his role at Tempest Marine by who?
The bank that was its biggest creditor. His role was to turn a failing business into a solvent business.

Could the question on betting odds have been "how do they make Bruce the favourite" how does that work?" Now that would fit with Bruce not ever being in the running.

Fez you are so ****ing right.

Hi Mel, plenty of scope to laugh at some folk! Lots of knobs in the world and not enough doors to open!

 

[Fez]

Just finished reading the last of Peter Bennetts wonderfully educational posts. What we all have to remember about this out and out arsehole is that everything stems from him being picked up for posting falsely - says much, knows nowt. He fires from the hip and his wit is ****, his technical knowledge is pants and his sarcasm is poor quality, even by the standards of these boards. The man's a ****, simple as!

Is he the new James Lodge?

 

[petersaxton]

Just finished reading the last of Peter Bennetts wonderfully educational posts. What we all have to remember about this out and out arsehole is that everything stems from him being picked up for posting falsely - says much, knows nowt. He fires from the hip and his wit is ****, his technical knowledge is pants and his sarcasm is poor quality, even by the standards of these boards. The man's a ****, simple as!

Is he the new James Lodge?

Which thread is that on?

 

[PLT]

Which is the point I've been making. To say 'there's no 100% fair way" is not justification for leaving it with an unrepresentative group, hence why, when you offered to ask questions on my behalf, I asked if you would have it brought to Mr Allam's attention that some feel the OSC does not represent the bulk of fans and is not an effective barometer of fans opinions. I think you've nicely confirmed this in your replies.

So, is the fans rep going to offer a fans opinion to Mr Allam, or effect his own editorial on questions?

Once again I'm not sure what you're asking. You originally suggested I find out about the possibility of resurrecting the FLC and I said I would ask about it, because I know that the people I'm close to will have discussed it and would be able to answer that very quickly. As you know, the people I talk to are in charge of the OSC, so am I going to ask them to tell Mr Allam that they aren't representative? No, that'd be ridiculous. As I keep saying, I have no idea what your argument actually is apart formt hat you aren't happy with the OSC.

Could the question on betting odds have been "how do they make Bruce the favourite" how does that work?" Now that would fit with Bruce not ever being in the running.

He asked a fair bit about the situation with odds, but he definitely said he didn't understand what being 1/6 meant. He asked if he would get 6 pounds back for betting 1 pound, which of course is the wrong way round.