Serious Question

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Guru of Ipswich said:
There is logic behind it.

Take QPR, they went down the more 'established' premier league players, how have they done? not very well, Take Cisse at Newcastle, how many people had heard of him before joining newcastle, yet bet you he won't be as prolific next season because he would have be watched first hand.

Yes of course there will be exceptions with the likes of star players and more talented established premier players, so don't you agree that its not the craziest logic in the world?
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but qpr signed them because that was the route the manager wanted to go down. warnock initially, and then hughes, felt that experienced players was the way forward. it hasn't really worked though they may yet survive. but it hasn't failed because opponents already knew their abilities and limitations. if you think that then thats incredibly naive. premier league teams do hours and hours of research about the opposition - they know (to the metre) how far they've run in a season, they know how many passes they make, they know direction of passes etc etc etc. no player is an 'unknown'.

with regards cisse, newcastle's chief scout graham carr has done a marvellous job sourcing players but i'm sorry, you didn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that players like cabaye would be suited to the premier league. fair play on papiss cisse but again, he had the raw talent - its all about harnessing it. any manager in the premier league will have had scouts down in germany checking his progress - they'll have all known about him from his days at metz too because he was on fire for them. nobody gambled back then but the fact he cost nearly £10m shows you he was hardly an unknown!

i'm afraid there is absolutely no logic in what you say. there would be if nobody ever did any research but they do. and jamie mackie is not an unknown just cos he hadn't played in the top flight before <doh>
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
but qpr signed them because that was the route the manager wanted to go down. warnock initially, and then hughes, felt that experienced players was the way forward. it hasn't really worked though they may yet survive. but it hasn't failed because opponents already knew their abilities and limitations. if you think that then thats incredibly naive. premier league teams do hours and hours of research about the opposition - they know (to the metre) how far they've run in a season, they know how many passes they make, they know direction of passes etc etc etc. no player is an 'unknown'.

with regards cisse, newcastle's chief scout graham carr has done a marvellous job sourcing players but i'm sorry, you didn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that players like cabaye would be suited to the premier league. fair play on papiss cisse but again, he had the raw talent - its all about harnessing it. any manager in the premier league will have had scouts down in germany checking his progress - they'll have all known about him from his days at metz too because he was on fire for them. nobody gambled back then but the fact he cost nearly £10m shows you he was hardly an unknown!

i'm afraid there is absolutely no logic in what you say. there would be if nobody ever did any research but they do. and jamie mackie is not an unknown just cos he hadn't played in the top flight before <doh>
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Listen it would silly to say there is any hard and fast rule, but i'm pretty sure stats will show that a club that hasn't changed their personnel after a promotion has a period of success then has a down turn.

Also, as it seems to have gone over your head about my point about being an unknown, research can only get you so far, until you play against a player you can never really be sure what their strengths and weaknesses are. I can't put it any plainer than that.

In way i'm paying you guys a compliment, you management in my eyes went about your first season in exactly the right way, all i'm saying is the second season will be tougher because certain players strengths and weaknesses will have been researched first hand by the best and only way to understand a player, and that is only by playing against them.
 
but we've had an enormous amount of change in personnel every season! teams will know more about how we approach games but as i said before, that won't help if we continue to mix it up as we have done so far.

honestly, every point you make is designed to put us down. problem is, every point you make is wrong <doh>

you've obviously come on here to try and make out that somehow we are a sinking ship, but you've failed miserably <ok>
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
you've merely pointed out everything that could possibly go wrong and not taken into account things that have been learnt.
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That, for me, is it in a nutshell. It's all just supposition based on the scenario Guru would like to see, thinly disguised as serious discussion.

It's argument for argument's sake, and fails epically. <ok>
 
ncgandy said:
That, for me, is it in a nutshell. It's all just supposition based on the scenario Guru would like to see, thinly disguised as serious discussion.

It's argument for argument's sake, and fails epically. <ok>
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No, its called debate! strangely i feel thats the whole point of forums like these, instead of a back slapping exercise where nobody feels like they can have a differing point of view.
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
but we've had an enormous amount of change in personnel every season! teams will know more about how we approach games but as i said before, that won't help if we continue to mix it up as we have done so far.

honestly, every point you make is designed to put us down. problem is, every point you make is wrong <doh>

you've obviously come on here to try and make out that somehow we are a sinking ship, but you've failed miserably <ok>
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All i have merely said, is the second season is going to be harder for you guys then the first!

I have even paid you guys a compliment, and you can't take it!
 
Guru of Ipswich said:
All i have merely said, is the second season is going to be harder for you guys then the first!

I have even paid you guys a compliment, and you can't take it!
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you might think that telling us what you have is paying us a compliment but it really isn't. we've all seen through what your motive is. the second season will be no easier or tougher than the first. each season has to be viewed on its own merits. it'll be a fresh team, fresh season, the sun (hopefully) will be shining and anything can happen. you've spent the entire thread telling us that we'll probably go down because of all manner of reasons, the vast majority of which don't even apply to us. we were set on a mission this season to survive - mission accomplished. its the same mission next season.
 
What so by basically saying that if we ever did go up, i would want us to have the same ethos as you guys isn't paying you a compliment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

come off it supers, you have just got the arse ache because i made mostly valid points which doesn't agree with this 'superman is right theory'. Is it a terrible crime for me to make a statement and then when i try to argue my point, all i get is patronising put downs? If you have any faults (and i really didn't want to go down this route) is that you need to realise that other people (from both norwich & ipswich) might have differing views than yourself. it doesn't mean they are right and it doesn't mean they are wrong, but they are allowed to have these views.

I stand by my main point, in that next season is crucial for you. If you stay up i can see you being there for a while, but i fully expect (rightly or wrongly) that you will struggle as other clubs will have found a formula to stop your tactics.
 
Guru of Ipswich said:
What so by basically saying that if we ever did go up, i would want us to have the same ethos as you guys isn't paying you a compliment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

come off it supers, you have just got the arse ache because i made mostly valid points which doesn't agree with this 'superman is right theory'. Is it a terrible crime for me to make a statement and then when i try to argue my point, all i get is patronising put downs? If you have any faults (and i really didn't want to go down this route) is that you need to realise that other people (from both norwich & ipswich) might have differing views than yourself. it doesn't mean they are right and it doesn't mean they are wrong, but they are allowed to have these views.

I stand by my main point, in that next season is crucial for you. If you stay up i can see you being there for a while, but i fully expect (rightly or wrongly) that you will struggle as other clubs will have found a formula to stop your tactics.
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ok, well i never saw you say that bit!

come on, the rest of your posts have been total garbage!! you know exactly what you're doing. you've made it evidently clear that you are desperate to see us fail next season. you've come up with theory after theory to explain why we will go down, none of which make any sense. to say 'next season is crucial to you' is daft - of course it is! every season we're in the premier league is crucial to us because until we go down - and we will eventually - the main priority shall remain trying to keep our heads above the water. every season, in all likelihood, will be a major battle for survival, as is the case for 75% of teams in the top flight. its not that you have an opposing view, its that nobody can take your view seriously because it is so negative towards us
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
ok, well i never saw you say that bit!

come on, the rest of your posts have been total garbage!! you know exactly what you're doing. you've made it evidently clear that you are desperate to see us fail next season. you've come up with theory after theory to explain why we will go down, none of which make any sense. to say 'next season is crucial to you' is daft - of course it is! every season we're in the premier league is crucial to us because until we go down - and we will eventually - the main priority shall remain trying to keep our heads above the water. every season, in all likelihood, will be a major battle for survival, as is the case for 75% of teams in the top flight. its not that you have an opposing view, its that nobody can take your view seriously because it is so negative towards us
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Well of course i want you to fail, I'm an Ipswich fan FFS! <doh>

once again you read half a statement. I said that next season was crucial for you because IF YOU SURVIVE I CAN SEE YOU BEING THERE FOR A WHILE.

And every arguement i have stated, i have had a perfectly reasoned logic to it, so there was no bitter ramblings like you would love to imagine. All i have stated is the pitfalls you might find going into your second season. Its not my problem if you don't like reading them, and it doesn't fall within this theory that you are always right because you was teaboy at the club (or something like that)
 
<applause> Guru

Well done for keeping your cool and using rational and reasoned arguements! <ok>

Only a swivel eyed budgie could take offence at anything you have said!
 
Guru of Ipswich said:
Well of course i want you to fail, I'm an Ipswich fan FFS! <doh>

once again you read half a statement. I said that next season was crucial for you because IF YOU SURVIVE I CAN SEE YOU BEING THERE FOR A WHILE.

And every arguement i have stated, i have had a perfectly reasoned logic to it, so there was no bitter ramblings like you would love to imagine. All i have stated is the pitfalls you might find going into your second season. Its not my problem if you don't like reading them, and it doesn't fall within this theory that you are always right becuase you was teaboy at the club (or something like that)
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i didn't read half the statement - i know what you put. i don't actually agree with it either. next season, if we stay up, will be no different to the one after that - the sole aim will always have to be to stay up. thats pretty depressing but its what has become of the game. thats all clubs like norwich or ipswich could hope for nowadays. taking the money and trying to reach the next level of clubs. you can't do that based on two seasons in the top flight - we'll always be looking over our shoulder, every season we participate in that league.

as for the 'pitfalls', i've said they make no sense and you've just kept on finding new ones which also make no sense! you've banged on about how we'll be found out - there is no evidence ANY team ever gets found out. you've said our players will lose their belief - god only knows where you got that idea from. you've said we might lose our manager, our players blah blah blah...

what you seem to have forgotten is that every norwich fan fully trusts the people running the club. thats all that matters to us. even if we went down next year i believe everyone would be fully behind everyone to bounce straight back up. after all, we were told to expect relegation. so stop trying to convince us that we are on the slide, cos we can all see through it. you've seen us lose three on the bounce and assumed we're in free fall.

on a side note, i think a lot of clubs will follow our model but there is no right way or wrong way to a) get promoted and b) stay there. i fully expect leicester to throw yet more money at the team next year and go up. works for some, not for others. we didn't actually have any choice!
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
i didn't read half the statement - i know what you put. i don't actually agree with it either. next season, if we stay up, will be no different to the one after that - the sole aim will always have to be to stay up. thats pretty depressing but its what has become of the game. thats all clubs like norwich or ipswich could hope for nowadays. taking the money and trying to reach the next level of clubs. you can't do that based on two seasons in the top flight - we'll always be looking over our shoulder, every season we participate in that league.

as for the 'pitfalls', i've said they make no sense and you've just kept on finding new ones which also make no sense! you've banged on about how we'll be found out - there is no evidence ANY team ever gets found out. you've said our players will lose their belief - god only knows where you got that idea from. you've said we might lose our manager, our players blah blah blah...

what you seem to have forgotten is that every norwich fan fully trusts the people running the club. thats all that matters to us. even if we went down next year i believe everyone would be fully behind everyone to bounce straight back up. after all, we were told to expect relegation. so stop trying to convince us that we are on the slide, cos we can all see through it. you've seen us lose three on the bounce and assumed we're in free fall.

on a side note, i think a lot of clubs will follow our model but there is no right way or wrong way to a) get promoted and b) stay there. i fully expect leicester to throw yet more money at the team next year and go up. works for some, not for others. we didn't actually have any choice!
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there is no evidence ANY team ever gets found out. So the fact that Cheski devised the plan the overun the centre midfield against barca, is clear evidence that they found barca out and i fully expect other teams to follow suit until barca use their wide men more!

you've said we might lose our manager, our players blah blah blah... So are you saying that there is no chance in the world that Lambert or any of your key players Holt, Pilkington, ruddy etc will leave. Not saying they will, but are you saying they won't? that would be a pretty sweeping statement if you did!
 
Guru of Ipswich said:
there is no evidence ANY team ever gets found out. So the fact that Cheski devised the plan the overun the centre midfield against barca, is clear evidence that they found barca out and i fully expect other teams to follow suit until barca use their wide men more!

you've said we might lose our manager, our players blah blah blah... So are you saying that there is no chance in the world that Lambert or any of your key players Holt, Pilkington, ruddy etc will leave. Not saying they will, but are you saying they won't? that would be a pretty sweeping statement if you did!
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barcelona don't have a plan b. this is extremely well known. its unusual for a club to be good enough defensively to beat them but chelsea were and thoroughly deserved their victory over the two games. norwich do not play one system or style of play. they cannot be found out in the way they set up. thats part of our success.

as for the manager or the players leaving - you could say the same about every single club in the land. my ONLY worry would be if david mcnally left. if he is still there, i fully trust him to secure the best manager to carry on the good work. if we lose players, well, teams lose players - what do you want me to say! again, we have the right man in the job to replace them.

you have constantly made out that we are in a really dangerous position next season - this simply isn't true. so many things would have to go wrong in order for us to be in serious, serious trouble. that doesn't mean we won't get relegated, but at this moment in time we are in a strong position, so you can stop your attempt at scaremongering <ok>
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
barcelona don't have a plan b. this is extremely well known. its unusual for a club to be good enough defensively to beat them but chelsea were and thoroughly deserved their victory over the two games. norwich do not play one system or style of play. they cannot be found out in the way they set up. thats part of our success.

as for the manager or the players leaving - you could say the same about every single club in the land. my ONLY worry would be if david mcnally left. if he is still there, i fully trust him to secure the best manager to carry on the good work. if we lose players, well, teams lose players - what do you want me to say! again, we have the right man in the job to replace them.

you have constantly made out that we are in a really dangerous position next season - this simply isn't true. so many things would have to go wrong in order for us to be in serious, serious trouble. that doesn't mean we won't get relegated, but at this moment in time we are in a strong position, so you can stop your attempt at scaremongering <ok>
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<doh> Reading these posts, Guru has been rational and fair, it is you Supers who is being hysterical!
 
to be honest, this is all a bit daft. guru argues that norwich are in serious trouble next season, seemingly based on a run of three defeats. i argue that we know we are going to be battling for survival but we are in no way the mess he suggests we are. round and round we go...
 
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