Two wingers and 'balance'

[Spur of the Moment]

It's not semantics Relayer, it's a different role and a deeper position. I agree with Lidls about this.

Playing the 4-2-3-1 results in several players being moved into positions that they're not that comfortable in and we don't get the best out of them.
Modric ends up too far up the pitch and gets stifled out of the game.
Van der Vaart either becomes anonymous or he reverts to playing in the middle anyway, which further congests the centre of the park and makes Modric even less effective.
With Bale now cutting in and wandering around all the time, we allow our opponents to get every one of their players exactly where they want them, with minimal distances between them.
Sandro has no idea what he's supposed to be doing and when, which is well illustrated by Redknapp's constant rants at him when we use this system.

Nobody's stretching the play. Nobody's forcing the opposition to think or move into parts of the pitch that they don't want to go.
Everyone's trying to play in the same part of the pitch. Everyone's funneling the ball straight down the middle to the massed hordes of defenders, who are very happy to see them coming.
What's the worst that can happen? They have to give a foul away or put the ball out and we'll waste the set piece.

Sorry PNP but think you are complicating the issue.
Modric gets many opportunities to strike on goal in his current position - not to mention the fact that with his abilities he should be a regular taker of free kicks (we appear to be happy for him to take corners.....).
However, apart from a couple of notable examples - Liverpool this year and Burnley 2 years ago - he consistently fails to even hit the target.

On that basis, 14 goals in 4 seasons is surely a poor return?

 

[Spur of the Moment]

Sorry PNP but think you are complicating the issue.
Modric gets many opportunities to strike on goal in his current position - not to mention the fact that with his abilities he should be a regular taker of free kicks (we appear to be happy for him to take corners.....).
However, apart from a couple of notable examples - Liverpool this year and Burnley 2 years ago - he consistently fails to even hit the target.

On that basis, 14 goals in 4 seasons is surely a poor return?

Oh - I nearly forgot the one against the Chavs at the Lane a couple of years ago. Maybe that's a good omen for Sunday?

 

[notsosmartspur]

It's not semantics Relayer, it's a different role and a deeper position. I agree with Lidls about this.

Playing the 4-2-3-1 results in several players being moved into positions that they're not that comfortable in and we don't get the best out of them.
Modric ends up too far up the pitch and gets stifled out of the game.
Van der Vaart either becomes anonymous or he reverts to playing in the middle anyway, which further congests the centre of the park and makes Modric even less effective.
With Bale now cutting in and wandering around all the time, we allow our opponents to get every one of their players exactly where they want them, with minimal distances between them.
Sandro has no idea what he's supposed to be doing and when, which is well illustrated by Redknapp's constant rants at him when we use this system.

Nobody's stretching the play. Nobody's forcing the opposition to think or move into parts of the pitch that they don't want to go.
Everyone's trying to play in the same part of the pitch. Everyone's funneling the ball straight down the middle to the massed hordes of defenders, who are very happy to see them coming.
What's the worst that can happen? They have to give a foul away or put the ball out and we'll waste the set piece.

Couldn't agree more, well worded post, its about getting behind the defence, turning them to face their goal, atm this bloody stupid system through the middle has opponents defending deep and 'facing' us. Thats why we have difficulty breaking them down, the close interplay between our front men simply isn't good enough, we are not Barca. Get wide, get behind the full backs, thats what we do. The only problem i see when we have done that, is our attackers seem inexplicably unable to spread themselves in the box ( 1 near, 1 far, 1 pen spot etc.) giving the crosser a bigger target area. In this respect, Defoe follows Ade everywhere...infuriating! ...so many crosses into gilt edged areas have gon begging this season, i really cannot believe Allen or Ferdinand haven't picked up on this. I swear a switched on set of strikers would get a hatful with our MF.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Well the argument rages on.

I'll just say, if Harry does go with two wingers, I'll be cheering them on, but I hope it's Livermore not Lennon who starts on Sunday. But more importantly, I hope it's Nelsen not King who starts.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Well it doesn't really GH, , because there isn't one, the first half of the season, 4411 and the players in the key positions that played most , umpteen wins and accolades from everywhere, since pissing around....well I'm sure I don't need to remind you.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

The thing about 4-2-3-1, in reality the midfield should look like this...

Parker Modric
Lennon Van Der Vaart Bale​

...although, realistically, we should play VDV on the right and have someone else in the hole behind Ade - which is a player we don't have at the moment, as the best option is Kranjcar or, taking a massive gamble on the unlikely outcome it works, Harry Kane.

We could play Lennon on the right and VDV in the hole, but with Lennon not cutting in on the right VDV is a better option out there.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Well it doesn't really GH, , because there isn't one, the first half of the season, 4411 and the players in the key positions that played most , umpteen wins and accolades from everywhere, since pissing around....well I'm sure I don't need to remind you.

Well there is one, according to me anyway (and indeed Power Spurs and most importantly Redknapp), because we have a better ppg this season when starting without Lennon than with him, so how can it be obvious that two wingers are the best way forward?

Harry is on record as not being happy with the way Aaron becomes a spectator at times. A considerable number of our best performances have come without Lennon, I've named some of them already.

 

[notsosmartspur]

We've lost games for many more reasons than starting Lennon, so that stat means nothing. Harry criticises lots of players at times, and i could name results with aswell...all rather unecessary, there's a case for both in this one-off game, whats gone on before is largely irrelevant in a cup tie, I've already accepted that.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Fair comments NSS. As you say the reasons we've lost games are manifold, Lennon isn't the main reason by a long distance.

ATM our biggest worry is CB, that's the key to Sunday I think. If Chelsea weren't involved in the CL I'd be tipping them to win, but they might just take their 'eye off the ball' with Barca in mind.

 

[notsosmartspur]

I agree GH (at last! ) I'm very concerned about Gallas lasting tbh, its one small reason for me to go at it from the off, get ahead, and if the end of the game is to be backs to the wall, I'd rather that than need a late goal for a result.

 

[Billy The Spur]

I just wish Parker was more dynamic with his passing, sure he is invaluable to the team with the work he puts in defensively and by leading by example but for me he slows our play down too much by passing backwards or short too often. I just wish he would get his head up quicker and see a pass straight away which keeps out tempo. Harsh criticism maybe but if Scotty had Tommys range of passing he would be some player.

 

[notsosmartspur]

I just wish Parker was more dynamic with his passing, sure he is invaluable to the team with the work he puts in defensively and by leading by example but for me he slows our play down too much by passing backwards or short too often. I just wish he would get his head up quicker and see a pass straight away which keeps out tempo. Harsh criticism maybe but if Scotty had Tommys range of passing he would be some player.

Totally agree with that, it really pee's me off when he's passed to by a defender and he immediately side foots it 5/10yds straight back to them....'they don't ****in want it back, thats why they gave it to you!!', he was never this negative at Spam.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Livermore would probably suit the 4-2-3-1 better than Sandro, as he's a little better with the ball, has more versatility and would contribute more going forward.
With Chelsea looking like they may rest players and Ivanovic definitely missing out, we'll be missing a trick if we don't go at them and attack with Bale out wide a lot, though.

I think that van der Vaart's largely crap on the right, by the way.
It doesn't suit him or Walker.

 

[Ghoddle10]

It's certainly a bit disappointing how Parker hasn't added some goalscoring/creative edge to his game for us, which he had at West Ham. Come on Scotty, make yourself a Spurs hero tomorrow, and score the winner against one of your old clubs.

 

[NSIS]

I agree that VDV is wasted on the right. He always drifts inside, and he hasn't the outright pace to play as a winger anyway. Walker is far from ideal, either. He 's still learning. Unfortunately, if we want to play the wide, pacy game that has served us so well this season, he is the only viable alternative to Lennon that we have.
Re defence, it seems that our CB partnership picks itself, for this game.
For me, Parker does a great job of holding our midfield defence together, breaking up opposition play, etc. if he manages to score a few, great. But, I for one, am happy with what he's doing now.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Well once again we played two wingers and once again we lost.

Chelsea played no wingers and won 5-1. There are very good reasons why most top teams don't play two wingers.

So why so many Spurs fans think it's absolutely clear cut we should play Lennon and Bale wide (for the main part) continues to baffle me.

 

[LockStock]

Well once again we played two wingers and once again we lost.

Chelsea played no wingers and won 5-1. There are very good reasons why most top teams don't play two wingers.

So why so many Spurs fans think it's absolutely clear cut we should play Lennon and Bale wide (for the main part) continues to baffle me.

Er... Man U play with two wingers and are top of the league.

Two wingers isn't why we lost.

With a better midfield and defensive performance, we'd have done better.

Parker didn't have his best game, aside from the wonder pass, and neglected to close down on Mata at crucial times when he would have usually.

Gallas had a shocker.

I also think it was a mistake to bring Defoe on for VDV.

All of that before we even talk about the goal that wasn't.

 

[NSIS]

Er... Man U play with two wingers and are top of the league.

Two wingers isn't why we lost.

With a better midfield and defensive performance, we'd have done better.

Parker didn't have his best game, aside from the wonder pass, and neglected to close down on Mata at crucial times when he would have usually.

Gallas had a shocker.

I also think it was a mistake to bring Defoe on for VDV.

All of that before we even talk about the goal that wasn't.

I'd agree with that. Those who criticise forget how well that system has served us most of the season. It is not the reason for our loss of form now. The reasons are manifold, IMO. lack of confidence, a defence that has gone back to it's worst old habits, plus other sporadic bad performances.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Er... Man U play with two wingers and are top of the league.

Two wingers isn't why we lost.

With a better midfield and defensive performance, we'd have done better.

Parker didn't have his best game, aside from the wonder pass, and neglected to close down on Mata at crucial times when he would have usually.

Gallas had a shocker.

I also think it was a mistake to bring Defoe on for VDV.

All of that before we even talk about the goal that wasn't.

Er, my point was that MOST top teams don't play with two wingers. Please read my post properly.

Actually I'm not sure Utd do play regularly with two wingers as Scholes Giggs and Carrick for example sometimes take up three of the slots, and Young and Nani tend to come inside.

But anyway even if Utd do, my point stands, City don't, Barca don't, Arsenal don't, Chelsea don't, Spain don't, Liverpool in their hey day didn't and don't now, Newcastle don't, Everton don't, neither did England when they won the world Cup, I could list endless examples.

Most top teams don't play two wingers, there are very good reasons for that. For people to claim it's obvious that Spurs are at their best with two wingers is something I just can't see.

Our ppg with Lennon starting this season is significantly WORSE than when he doesn't start.

I won't argue in detail about yesterday's game, but playing with two wingers we lost 5-1 against a team that played with no wingers - hardly a testament to the 'two wingers it gives balance' school of thought.

Two wingers can and does at time unbalance us, because it leaves us vulnerable. Four solid results with two DMS, then bring back two wingers and two absolute shockers, 1-2 to Norwich AT HOME, 1-5 to Chelsea at a neutral venue, where recently recently with two DMs we drew 0-0 at their ground, and had the better of the game.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Our ppg with Lennon starting this season is significantly WORSE than when he doesn't start.

Our losses started racking up when we started games with two defensive midfielders.

Losses mean more than points per game ratios.