Two wingers and 'balance'

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Whatever hole you put Dos Santos in...just backfill it! :)

EDIT - Actually that reads worse than I intended with 'backfill', what a pun!...doesn't get any better with 'fill it in' either! <laugh>
 
He's a good player regardless of the Harry nonsense about him drinking (something he had no problem with when it came to King and Keane)

Barcelona do not accept rubbish players to their academy (they sell players that don't meet their very high standards)
 
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said:
Luke is right (even with his history)

Harry's insistence on using the nominally best 11 players available regardless of position or fatigue has cost us

4-4-1-1 is clearly our best formation so we should have reserve players that can fit into it

Eg if Bale is out play Kranjcar at LW not Modric. Or if VDV is out play Dos Santos in the hole (even though Harry clearly hates him)
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I'm with GH10 on this. Lennon is not one of our best 11 players and since we don't have anyone good enough to cover Parker, Bale or Lennon (and arguably Modric, VdV and Ade) in a 4411 then it can't be our best formation! I think Harry has belatedly worked this out which is why he changed it, but we've had a few teething problems making the new system work. I also don't think 4231 or 433 are more negative than 4411. Having two of Parker/Sandro/Huddlestone/Livermore in the team means that Modric and Bale (or Kranjcar and Lennon) are free to play more advanced and also allows VdV (or Dos Santos) to play closer to Ade (or Saha).
Sandro, Huddlestone and probably Livermore are all better than Lennon but they are effectively fighting for one place in a 4411.
Dos Santos has never had a proper chance playing in his best position which is the VdV role.
 
PowerSpurs said:
I'm with GH10 on this. Lennon is not one of our best 11 players and since we don't have anyone good enough to cover Parker, Bale or Lennon (and arguably Modric, VdV and Ade) in a 4411 then it can't be our best formation! I think Harry has belatedly worked this out which is why he changed it, but we've had a few teething problems making the new system work. I also don't think 4231 or 433 are more negative than 4411. Having two of Parker/Sandro/Huddlestone/Livermore in the team means that Modric and Bale (or Kranjcar and Lennon) are free to play more advanced and also allows VdV (or Dos Santos) to play closer to Ade (or Saha).
Sandro, Huddlestone and probably Livermore are all better than Lennon but they are effectively fighting for one place in a 4411.
Dos Santos has never had a proper chance playing in his best position which is the VdV role.
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It also means that we don't play with the pace and width that has served us so well most of the season. If we go in with this two DM's set-up that Harry has been trying recently, I believe we'll come unstuck.
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
It also means that we don't play with the pace and width that has served us so well most of the season. If we go in with this two DM's set-up that Harry has been trying recently, I believe we'll come unstuck.
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We only have pace and width and proper defensive cover if all of Lennon, Bale, Parker and Modric are available. That is why Harry can't rotate the squad in that formation. Didn't you see the acres of space in midfield that a mid-table side like Norwich had on Saturday with just Parker missing from those four (although having Defoe instead of VdV also didn't help).
 
with two fast winger's we don't need two dm's as the opposition full backs can't come forward in, case they leave themselves open to our pace
 
PowerSpurs said:
We only have pace and width and proper defensive cover if all of Lennon, Bale, Parker and Modric are available. That is why Harry can't rotate the squad in that formation. Didn't you see the acres of space in midfield that a mid-table side like Norwich had on Saturday with just Parker missing from those four (although having Defoe instead of VdV also didn't help).
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Livermore and Modric in midfield was never a starter. Neither one is a DM. Parker does the job very well, though. The other reason Norwich controlled the midfield was that they wanted it more and we just weren't at the races on Monday.
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
Livermore and Modric in midfield was never a starter. Neither one is a DM. Parker does the job very well, though. The other reason Norwich controlled the midfield was that they wanted it more and we just weren't at the races on Monday.
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My whole point is that we don't have the back-up to play 4411 because while Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, VdV and Ade do it very well, we've got no real like-for-like cover in any of these positions. So if even one of them is missing we're stuffed.
 
PowerSpurs said:
My whole point is that we don't have the back-up to play 4411 because while Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, VdV and Ade do it very well, we've got no real like-for-like cover in any of these positions. So if even one of them is missing we're stuffed.
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We've played this since the start of last season...3 transfer windows have passed since then. If we do not have the personel to back up our best formation/only tried and tested formation.... it's one persons fault.
 
Since we started playing 2 DMs recently, we drew at Chelsea and Sunderland and beat Swansea and Bolton, very good form, then went back to two wingers and lost at home to Norwich.

ATM we're better with two DMs than two wingers, and Lennon's stats point to the fact that he isn't part of our best XI.

I can see why Harry gambled v Norwich, but it failed, miserably and probably has done for our CL place.

I don't like two wingers in general, and certainly Lennon and Bale against Norwich far from giving us balance actually unbalanced us. Sandro with Livermore and Modric would have given us more balance.

I don't know what's our best formation, but as PS convincingly argues 4-4-1-1 (with two wingers) isn't the one that is the best AFAIC.
 
PowerSpurs said:
My whole point is that we don't have the back-up to play 4411 because while Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, VdV and Ade do it very well, we've got no real like-for-like cover in any of these positions. So if even one of them is missing we're stuffed.
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I agree with you on the backup point. However, the game against Chelsea is a one off cup semi- final. I'm my view, we play our best football with two wingers, using pace and width to stretch the opposition before they have time to recover their defensive positions. I also think that Wembley is an ideal place to use this format.
Sure there are times, and against other teams, when we may need to go with two DM's. But, this isn't one of them, IMO.
All those who cite the Norwich game, fail to see the real reason we lost. We weren't at the races, we didn't compete, and Norwich were fresher, and wanted it more. In general, all our best football, and results have come from playing our natural attacking game. It's only since this Harry for England crap, combined with his seemingly more conservative attitude, that has seen us go on this poor run of form.
 
Ghoddle10 said:
Since we started playing 2 DMs recently, we drew at Chelsea and Sunderland and beat Swansea and Bolton, very good form, then went back to two wingers and lost at home to Norwich.

ATM we're better with two DMs than two wingers, and Lennon's stats point to the fact that he isn't part of our best XI.

I can see why Harry gambled v Norwich, but it failed, miserably and probably has done for our CL place.

I don't like two wingers in general, and certainly Lennon and Bale against Norwich far from giving us balance actually unbalanced us. Sandro with Livermore and Modric would have given us more balance.

I don't know what's our best formation, but as PS convincingly argues 4-4-1-1 (with two wingers) isn't the one that is the best AFAIC.
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I can see your point, and I think at home with the right team (personel and everyone fit not burnt out) 4-4-1-1 works. Away from home especially against the top teams (and fingers crossed in preperation for Champs league footie) 4-2-3-1 is fine. But against Sunderland and Everton we struggled to break them down, so switching to a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2 is a good option.

It doesn't matter what formation you play, you need the right people in the right places in the right frame of mind doing it, and right now we have a squad questioning the manager, burnt out from being overplayed, some fed up not being played, and people being played out of position. Hence my frustration at Harry.
 
Can someone tell me if we ever played 4-4-1-1 consistently before VDV arrived?

Our apparent 'best' formation seems to be based on the fact that VDV is in the squad. It may or may not be the best formation, but lets not pretend that we weren't playing 4-4-2 before that, with success too. All because we got Palacios to add steel in the middle of the pitch. That role is now handled by Parker. Who else in our squad can we trust to handle this?

My point is, surely the formation working, or not, depends more so on the steel in the middle, than the fact that there is too much width with both Lennon and Bale on the pitch. If the middle is solid, width is good, no?

4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. I actually don't mind too much. As long as we don't have a lightweight centre. If one of the midfield is going to 'marshall', it's all good. My isssue isn't with wingers or two strikers. It's the centre.

An under-supported defence causes errors as we saw over the weekend. In my mind, we lost because of defensive errors more so than too much width.
 
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