Transfer Embargo

[Steven Toast]

And that's all I was respectfully trying to ask/say. What is it that £2.5 mil is going to be spent on to vastly improve the academy from what it is now?
Not being a Cat 1 hasn't stopped us earning 10s of millions in transfer fees recently for academy products. It's not stopped the likes of Flemming, Jacob and Jarvis getting a chance.

If we take the pathway argument and I back down a bit and say you do have some point there, the difference Acun can make is to insist that any manager coming in utilises the youth players more. Im sure Steve Bruce made a comment once along the lines of 'playing academy kids won't keep me in a job'. What Acun could do, which I wouldn't be against, is stipulating that any manager has at least 2 academy products on the bench and takes a hands on approach with the academy system.

It's a decent and functioning set up, it doesn't urgently require money.

However, as someone has pointed out, most of these kids just aren't good enough, as upsetting for them as it is. I've seen lads in tears when releasing them from Fev Rovers, never mind a potential money spinning career, so I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be to realise you're not going to hit the big time with a club like City. The fact is we have a pretty decent strike rate of producing players that can play at a good level recently and players like Jacob and Smith will have good lower league careers but they were just that little bit short for the first team.

Andy Smith being sold actually represents pretty good business. We didn't pay for him and I think people assume that because it isn't at KLP or Bowen levels of money, that it's disappointing somehow. He cost us nothing and we made six figures by selling him.

If we can produce one a season that is sold on for that much or more, it represents a very good production rate.

 

[HCAFCHangout]

And that's all I was respectfully trying to ask/say. What is it that £2.5 mil is going to be spent on to vastly improve the academy from what it is now?
Not being a Cat 1 hasn't stopped us earning 10s of millions in transfer fees recently for academy products. It's not stopped the likes of Flemming, Jacob and Jarvis getting a chance.

If we take the pathway argument and I back down a bit and say you do have some point there, the difference Acun can make is to insist that any manager coming in utilises the youth players more. Im sure Steve Bruce made a comment once along the lines of 'playing academy kids won't keep me in a job'. What Acun could do, which I wouldn't be against, is stipulating that any manager has at least 2 academy products on the bench and takes a hands on approach with the academy system.

It's a decent and functioning set up, it doesn't urgently require money.

However, as someone has pointed out, most of these kids just aren't good enough, as upsetting for them as it is. I've seen lads in tears when releasing them from Fev Rovers, never mind a potential money spinning career, so I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be to realise you're not going to hit the big time with a club like City. The fact is we have a pretty decent strike rate of producing players that can play at a good level recently and players like Jacob and Smith will have good lower league careers but they were just that little bit short for the first team.

Regarding the immediate requirements I think Toast’s post highlights them. Some points are vague but it does highlight

In fairness on pathways. “Investment” wasn’t the right term. As the ideal scenario you’ve outlined is pretty much what I would like. It is about ethos and culture and I suppose there’s a mental investment as well some financial.

I do get that the road to success is littered with players that fail. But increasing our odds on having more homegrown talent not just in the squad but in the league is a good thing. I personally don’t think it’s worth brushing aside just because a large percentage fail

 

[Jim the Tiger]

Andy Smith being sold actually represents pretty good business. We didn't pay for him and I think people assume that because it isn't at KLP or Bowen levels of money, that it's disappointing somehow. He cost us nothing and we made six figures by selling him.

If we can produce one a season that is sold on for that much or more, it represents a very good production rate.

Absolutely. Coyle and Ashbee are likely to be the next two.

I've no doubt being a Cat1 will help attract a higher level of talent from a bigger pond but its not as if the academy isn't functioning right now and there are far more pressing things to spend money and time on.

 

[kccircle]

Andy Smith being sold actually represents pretty good business. We didn't pay for him and I think people assume that because it isn't at KLP or Bowen levels of money, that it's disappointing somehow. He cost us nothing and we made six figures by selling him.

If we can produce one a season that is sold on for that much or more, it represents a very good production rate.

It’s the way clubs should run. Bring 2-4 youth players into the first team each season , sell 2 and repeat

 

[SydneyTiger14]

who are wrexham producing

Players who have come into and succeeded in their first team. Just looking at their current squad they have 6 making appearances all academy graduates. My point being they were non league a few years ago, is the suggestion that they've just got lucky and a few efl quality players have popped along? Do pl clubs like Everton just get lucky that they manage to find players like dcl who do well for them (for a while) in the pl, or perhaps does their investment in their academy pay off?

Ours is producing talent but to suggest klp and greaves popped through as brilliant players regardless of the academy quality is just silly.

 

[Jim the Tiger]

Regarding the immediate requirements I think Toast’s post highlights them. Some points are vague but it does highlight

In fairness on pathways. “Investment” wasn’t the right term. As the ideal scenario you’ve outlined is pretty much what I would like. It is about ethos and culture and I suppose there’s a mental investment as well some financial.

I do get that the road to success is littered with players that fail. But increasing our odds on having more homegrown talent not just in the squad but in the league is a good thing. I personally don’t think it’s worth brushing aside just because a large percentage fail

I've always felt its pretty lazy and short sighted for any club/manager not to insist an Academy player is on the bench.

 

[bradymk2]

Players who have come into and succeeded in their first team. Just looking at their current squad they have 6 making appearances all academy graduates. My point being they were non league a few years ago, is the suggestion that they've just got lucky and a few efl quality players have popped along? Do pl clubs like Everton just get lucky that they manage to find players like dcl who do well for them (for a while) in the pl, or perhaps does their investment in their academy pay off?

Ours is producing talent but to suggest klp and greaves popped through as brilliant players regardless of the academy quality is just silly.

Klp would have came through regardless of academy quality
Hes one in a few hundred million

But i get your point

Its like what england and the fa did in the mid 2000s
And its reaping rewards now
Won the last two u21 euros etc

But i think the legacy of our 3 prem promotions is disgusting
The allams did the bare minimum for the academy

 

[SydneyTiger14]

Klp would have came through regardless of academy quality
Hes one in a few hundred million

But i get your point

Its like what england and the fa did in the mid 2000s
And its reaping rewards now
Won the last two u21 euros etc

But i think the legacy of our 3 prem promotions is disgusting
The allams did the bare minimum for the academy

I don't necessarily agree on klp, similar with Bowen. I don't think he was going to be a success regardless, it's just easy to think that because of where they've got to. But yes over time, increased investment and resources used on youth development will bear fruit. Not every year and not always at pl level, but the more you invest the higher quality players you will develop.

 

[bradymk2]

I don't necessarily agree on klp, similar with Bowen. I don't think he was going to be a success regardless, it's just easy to think that because of where they've got to. But yes over time, increased investment and resources used on youth development will bear fruit. Not every year and not always at pl level, but the more you invest the higher quality players you will develop.

The higher resources also gives you a bigger reach to find potential young players

And i disagree
I think klp has so much talent, he would have ended in the prem
It wasnt due to our coaching or not due to
Hes jus a phenom

Same with bowen

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

The higher resources also gives you a bigger reach to find potential young players

And i disagree
I think klp has so much talent, he would have ended in the prem
It wasnt due to our coaching or not due to
Hes jus a phenom

Same with bowen

Rubbish
He was tiny and was persevered with
A lot of academies would have bombed him out

 

[bradymk2]

Rubbish
He was tiny and was persevered with
A lot of academies would have bombed him out

thats missing my point
thats a tale as old as time in this country unfortunately
regards to size

but im saying he would have made it in whatever academy if he was allowed to flourish
we didnt have some special secret

 

[Chazz Rheinhold]

thats missing my point
thats a tale as old as time in this country unfortunately
regards to size

but im saying he would have made it in whatever academy if he was allowed to flourish
we didnt have some special secret

Did he play for England u15’s etc
No he didn’t
So he wasn’t that special
Give some credit to our academy
They gave him the conditions to flourish and he took that

 

[bradymk2]

Did he play for England u15’s etc
No he didn’t
So he wasn’t that special
Give some credit to our academy
They gave him the conditions to flourish and he took that

not discrediting the academy, jut saying hes such a talented player, he would have made it, hes that much of a rarity

 

[Steven Toast]

Players who have come into and succeeded in their first team. Just looking at their current squad they have 6 making appearances all academy graduates. My point being they were non league a few years ago, is the suggestion that they've just got lucky and a few efl quality players have popped along? Do pl clubs like Everton just get lucky that they manage to find players like dcl who do well for them (for a while) in the pl, or perhaps does their investment in their academy pay off?

Ours is producing talent but to suggest klp and greaves popped through as brilliant players regardless of the academy quality is just silly.

It's been said for a long time that we have one of the largest catchment areas for clubs as we're the only professional club in our county. I haven't checked but the only other I can think of that has just the one club is Cornwall and their biggest club (Truro City) are in the National League, nor are they even professional. We need to maximise that. We shouldn't be losing out to Leeds, Middlesbrough and Sheffield clubs, or even York, Scunthorpe or Grimsby. I taught Charlie Hatton when he was in Year 4, who is now in the U18s of Grimsby Town. He was born and raised in Hull but was in Grimsby's set up because City weren't interested in him (too small). Brightest lad in his year, humble and will make it as a pro at some point. But lads like that passed us by in previous years because we had a rather dated way of bringing players in at that level.

I checked back to see which of the U21s who made it to the cup final against West Ham went pro (players in bold play for professional clubs now).

Rory Watson - York City
Brian Lenihan - retired
Josh Tymon - Swansea City
Max Clark - Gillingham
Harvey Rodgers - Grimsby Town
Ben Clappison - retired and works for the civil service (last played for Pickering Town)
Tyler Hamilton - without a club since leaving North Ferriby in 2021
Robbie McKenzie - Gillingham
Ben Hinchcliffe - Beverley Town
Greg Olley - Gateshead
Jarrod Bowen - West Ham and England
Johnny Saltmer - Last played for Buxton in 2021, now a model
Adam Curry - retired, now manages a plumbing company near Ennerdale
Will Annan - Bridlington Town
Dan Batty - York City
Josh Clackstone - Alfreton Town

So our academy does produce a fair amount of professionals, especially for Gillingham apparently.

 

[bradymk2]

It's been said for a long time that we have one of the largest catchment areas for clubs as we're the only professional club in our county. I haven't checked but the only other I can think of that has just the one club is Cornwall and their biggest club (Truro City) are in the National League, nor are they even professional. We need to maximise that. We shouldn't be losing out to Leeds, Middlesbrough and Sheffield clubs, or even York, Scunthorpe or Grimsby. I taught Charlie Hatton when he was in Year 4, who is now in the U18s of Grimsby Town. He was born and raised in Hull but was in Grimsby's set up because City weren't interested in him (too small). Brightest lad in his year, humble and will make it as a pro at some point. But lads like that passed us by in previous years because we had a rather dated way of bringing players in at that level.

I checked back to see which of the U21s who made it to the cup final against West Ham went pro (players in bold play for professional clubs now).

Rory Watson - York City
Brian Lenihan - retired
Josh Tymon - Swansea City
Max Clark - Gillingham
Harvey Rodgers - Grimsby Town
Ben Clappison - retired and works for the civil service (last played for Pickering Town)
Tyler Hamilton - without a club since leaving North Ferriby in 2021
Robbie McKenzie - Gillingham
Ben Hinchcliffe - Beverley Town
Greg Olley - Gateshead
Jarrod Bowen - West Ham and England
Johnny Saltmer - Last played for Buxton in 2021, now a model
Adam Curry - retired, now manages a plumbing company near Ennerdale
Will Annan - Bridlington Town
Dan Batty - York City
Josh Clackstone - Alfreton Town

So our academy does produce a fair amount of professionals, especially for Gillingham apparently.

thats a really good number of pros actually
its easy to forget, just how insanely high the level to play in the prem is

that pros at league 2 level is a success, even though it usually means no real profit

 

[Steven Toast]

thats a really good number of pros actually
its easy to forget, just how insanely high the level to play in the prem is

that pros at league 2 level is a success, even though it usually means no real profit

I've played at semi-pro level in my younger days and it's frightening to think that Rory Watson is closer to somebody like Donnarumma in terms of ability than I am to Rory Watson.

Also, more than half that team going on to be professionals just shows how good that cohort was. Subsequent ones haven't spawned anything like as much talent, though I guess you'd have to check back in a few years as its probably unfair to use 20/20 hindsight on one group without the luxury of using it on another.

 

[bradymk2]

I've played at semi-pro level in my younger days and it's frightening to think that Rory Watson is closer to somebody like Donnarumma in terms of ability than I am to Rory Watson.

its like that basketball players quote, the ' bad ' pros are closer to the messis and co than we are to them

 

[Jim the Tiger]

It's been said for a long time that we have one of the largest catchment areas for clubs as we're the only professional club in our county. I haven't checked but the only other I can think of that has just the one club is Cornwall and their biggest club (Truro City) are in the National League, nor are they even professional. We need to maximise that. We shouldn't be losing out to Leeds, Middlesbrough and Sheffield clubs, or even York, Scunthorpe or Grimsby. I taught Charlie Hatton when he was in Year 4, who is now in the U18s of Grimsby Town. He was born and raised in Hull but was in Grimsby's set up because City weren't interested in him (too small). Brightest lad in his year, humble and will make it as a pro at some point. But lads like that passed us by in previous years because we had a rather dated way of bringing players in at that level.

I checked back to see which of the U21s who made it to the cup final against West Ham went pro (players in bold play for professional clubs now).

Rory Watson - York City
Brian Lenihan - retired
Josh Tymon - Swansea City
Max Clark - Gillingham
Harvey Rodgers - Grimsby Town
Ben Clappison - retired and works for the civil service (last played for Pickering Town)
Tyler Hamilton - without a club since leaving North Ferriby in 2021
Robbie McKenzie - Gillingham
Ben Hinchcliffe - Beverley Town
Greg Olley - Gateshead
Jarrod Bowen - West Ham and England
Johnny Saltmer - Last played for Buxton in 2021, now a model
Adam Curry - retired, now manages a plumbing company near Ennerdale
Will Annan - Bridlington Town
Dan Batty - York City
Josh Clackstone - Alfreton Town

So our academy does produce a fair amount of professionals, especially for Gillingham apparently.

You forgot to mention Lincoln who also scout heavily in this area.
The fact is City can only take on so many so Grimsby, Lincoln, Scunny etc will also fish in this pond because its better than their own. Leeds will take who they want because they're a far bigger club than us and many will have their heads turned.
Tommy Coyles lad has gone to Huddersfield aged 10 so it's even further afield on occasions.

We appear to be doing what we can as a club. There are satellite sessions/academies. After I passed my UEFA C I thought about applying for a role I saw the club advertise which I think was running the satellite one in Kirklees but I was advised to wait for something else which was coming up at another club. They're a great idea and without knowing tons about them I guess it costs the club a t shirt and a tracksuit to get decent players in other areas under their watch.

 

[bradymk2]

You forgot to mention Lincoln who also scout heavily in this area.
The fact is City can only take on so many so Grimsby, Lincoln, Scunny etc will also fish in this pond because its better than their own. Leeds will take who they want because they're a far bigger club than us and many will have their heads turned.
Tommy Coyles lad has gone to Huddersfield aged 10 so it's even further afield on occasions.

We appear to be doing what we can as a club. There are satellite sessions/academies. After I passed my UEFA C I thought about applying for a role I saw the club advertise which I think was running the satellite one in Kirklees but I was advised to wait for something else which was coming up at another club. They're a great idea and without knowing tons about them I guess it costs the club a t shirt and a tracksuit to get decent players in other areas under their watch.

with unlimited funds, youd have every single kid who likes football, and then filter down and down and down until you find the extremely good ones
but thats not realistic obviously
so you need to try and find as many as possible

personally, i think the uk system needs to become similar to the german one, i think most spanish are the same too
where school is included in the academies
so when 99% dont make it, theyre not ruined as such

 

[Jim the Tiger]

with unlimited funds, youd have every single kid who likes football, and then filter down and down and down until you find the extremely good ones
but thats not realistic obviously
so you need to try and find as many as possible

personally, i think the uk system needs to become similar to the german one, i think most spanish are the same too
where school is included in the academies
so when 99% dont make it, theyre not ruined as such

It just wouldn't work even with billions to spend on scouting. Yeah, you would get plenty of good kids but they develop at different ages. You would need to be signing hundreds of kids at every age group and turning them over like cattle.

At under 10s alone I've seen tons of very good boys. Really strong little players. The chances are all of them will end up being brickies, accountants and drug dealers. That's not to say they will have lots of fun on the way but the standard to get to even u10s at Hull City is incredible.