Transfer Embargo

[Jim the Tiger]

You know yourself pretty well

Its absolutely insane for any club (outside of the giants who poach any talent aged 5), academy to produce a prem level player
Its such a rarity, the level needed to play at that level

I agree which shows just how well our Academy did to nurture the pair of them and use that pathway to the first team that apparently doesn't exist to develop them into first team regulars which prompted Premier league interest.

If only Acun would get his wallet out we could easily do about 50 of them a year. We just need a pathway and for them to be able to train on the next pitch to Burstow and Vaughan so they can learn stuff and that.

 

[bradymk2]

I agree which shows just how well our Academy did to nurture the pair of them and use that pathway to the first team that apparently doesn't exist to develop them into first team regulars which prompted Premier league interest.

If only Acun would get his wallet out we could easily do about 50 of them a year. We just need a pathway and for them to be able to train on the next pitch to Burstow and Vaughan so they can learn stuff and that.

I dont really know anything about how our academy is setup but from the outside it seems pretty decent now

Theres plenty of opportunities for our young players to go out and loan
And gain experience

The rest is in their hands or feet rather

 

[HCAFCHangout]

But only 3% of academy players ever play in the Premier League, so whatever Cat 1 academies do, it actually doesn’t work.

I didn’t realise that the premier league was the only league in England!

 

[Jim the Tiger]

I dont really know anything about how our academy is setup but from the outside it seems pretty decent now

Theres plenty of opportunities for our young players to go out and loan
And gain experience

The rest is in their hands or feet rather

Its a decent set up. As I've said, far from the most important thing to be worrying about right now.
Our injury history in recent years is a real worry. The recent payment issues is a worry until clarified properly. The amount of deadwood we have in the squad is a worry. I'd prefer these to be sorted first.

 

[bradymk2]

Its a decent set up. As I've said, far from the most important thing to be worrying about right now.
Our injury history in recent years is a real worry. The recent payment issues is a worry until clarified properly. The amount of deadwood we have in the squad is a worry. I'd prefer these to be sorted first.

Competent leadership and the latter two wouldnt exist im afraid

 

[HCAFCHangout]

Moving the academy to the first team training ground is not investment in the academy, it would be am investment in the training ground, something he has already spoken about trying to do. It's not a simple thing to sort out given the lack of room for expansion at Cottingham and no chance of moving the fair from the stadium.

The pathway argument is also pointless. What exactly should Acun be investing in to make that work? It's down to first team coaching staff at any club to create a pathway. They decide who trains with the first team. No amount of 'investment from Acun changes that.

The academy is functioning perfectly well for a club of our size, as proven by the 2 x multi million pound sales in the last 5 years. It is the least of our worries right now.

Feel like the first point is splitting hairs somewhat. By investing into a facility like that it’s investing into both.

Investing into the pathway wouldn’t be just a financial one but a commitment into creating those pathways. We’ve taken the strategy to build the squad out with experienced pros thus limiting opportunities for youngsters. Imagine you take the total fee for sinik (£4m transfer plus let’s assume total £3m wages). That could’ve been invested into infrastructure, coaching and development. Not only do you create a spot then for a player to grow into you’ve likely saved yourself some money overall.

Granted I’ll agree it’s not a overall successful mechanism given the relative success rates but to knock it down to well our academy is doing fine because “we’ve sold two players recently” would be short sighted IMO. Both players got their opportunities respectively because we dropped down a league and for necessity we had to play them. KLP was solid from the off but Greaves took some maturing. Imagine if it was 2 years later and Greaves’ pathway was blocked by Tobias Figeuredo.

With current PSR restrictions clubs like our size have to adapt or die. Find cheap talents and flip them but also consistently invest into the academy to get pure profit sales every so often. Doesn’t have to be on the scale of Greaves or KLP but you sell a Brandon Fleming or Andy Smith for 6 figures every year or so that’s still good business.

 

[Kalman II]

Its a decent set up. As I've said, far from the most important thing to be worrying about right now.
Our injury history in recent years is a real worry. The recent payment issues is a worry until clarified properly. The amount of deadwood we have in the squad is a worry. I'd prefer these to be sorted first.

I thought there was nothing to worry about?

 

[balkan tiger]

Just had a rake around trying to find out what the difference is between the academy categories and it's not exactly clear. Cat 1 requires a bigger number of staff (18) and a budget of 2.5 million. But other than that it's all rather vague.

 

[Amin Arrears]

Feel like the first point is splitting hairs somewhat. By investing into a facility like that it’s investing into both.

Investing into the pathway wouldn’t be just a financial one but a commitment into creating those pathways. We’ve taken the strategy to build the squad out with experienced pros thus limiting opportunities for youngsters. Imagine you take the total fee for sinik (£4m transfer plus let’s assume total £3m wages). That could’ve been invested into infrastructure, coaching and development. Not only do you create a spot then for a player to grow into you’ve likely saved yourself some money overall.

Granted I’ll agree it’s not a overall successful mechanism given the relative success rates but to knock it down to well our academy is doing fine because “we’ve sold two players recently” would be short sighted IMO. Both players got their opportunities respectively because we dropped down a league and for necessity we had to play them. KLP was solid from the off but Greaves took some maturing. Imagine if it was 2 years later and Greaves’ pathway was blocked by Tobias Figeuredo.

With current PSR restrictions clubs like our size have to adapt or die. Find cheap talents and flip them but also consistently invest into the academy to get pure profit sales every so often. Doesn’t have to be on the scale of Greaves or KLP but you sell a Brandon Fleming or Andy Smith for 6 figures every year or so that’s still good business.

These young players also fill out the squad and offer good depth, even if they never push on to become first team regulars here.

Unfortunately, sponsors don’t want to invest in infrastructure and long term goals. It’s not very much fun.

 

[HCAFCHangout]

Just had a rake around trying to find out what the difference is between the academy categories and it's not exactly clear. Cat 1 requires a bigger number of staff (18) and a budget of 2.5 million. But other than that it's all rather vague.

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure one of the requirements is having your own facility

 

[Steven Toast]

Feel like the first point is splitting hairs somewhat. By investing into a facility like that it’s investing into both.

Investing into the pathway wouldn’t be just a financial one but a commitment into creating those pathways. We’ve taken the strategy to build the squad out with experienced pros thus limiting opportunities for youngsters. Imagine you take the total fee for sinik (£4m transfer plus let’s assume total £3m wages). That could’ve been invested into infrastructure, coaching and development. Not only do you create a spot then for a player to grow into you’ve likely saved yourself some money overall.

Granted I’ll agree it’s not a overall successful mechanism given the relative success rates but to knock it down to well our academy is doing fine because “we’ve sold two players recently” would be short sighted IMO. Both players got their opportunities respectively because we dropped down a league and for necessity we had to play them. KLP was solid from the off but Greaves took some maturing. Imagine if it was 2 years later and Greaves’ pathway was blocked by Tobias Figeuredo.

With current PSR restrictions clubs like our size have to adapt or die. Find cheap talents and flip them but also consistently invest into the academy to get pure profit sales every so often. Doesn’t have to be on the scale of Greaves or KLP but you sell a Brandon Fleming or Andy Smith for 6 figures every year or so that’s still good business.

This is why I think our reserves should be playing in the East Riding County Leagues and not the reserve league. I'm not sure why the rule allows for non-league teams to have reserves further down the pyramid (Scarborough Athletic Reserves and Beverley Town Reserves both play in the Humber Prem, while North Ferriby, South Cave, Sculcoates Amateurs and Bridlington Town all have reserves in the division below) but professional teams can't. I can only speculate we don't do it because we wouldn't want to play a potential first team player and have his ankle snapped by a hungover Big Baz playing at centre half.

Greaves spent the season prior to his breakthrough at Cheltenham in League Two and it was sort of good for him (in a weird way) that we were relegated that season as he could step up. Also gave KLP a decent chance at playing in the first team too.

We sent Sincere Hall somewhere like Liversedge, Paul Iggulden to Stocksbridge Park Steels and countless other reserves were loaned to tiny coal mining villages with clubs that play at that level anyway. That's fine for giving players a first taste of men's football having come from the U18s, but most players in the U21s that join from other clubs have played men's football already in some capacity and having them play the reserves of teams that are in the division below our first team isn't going to bring their development on much. Likewise, sending players far away at a young age like we did with McAuley Snelgrove, Alfie Taylor and Ahmed Salam can be detrimental too, especially if they aren't playing. Snelgrove had a rough time at Crusaders; because they were only part time he ended up training twice a week and then the rest of the time he had **** all to do because he wasn't getting enough minutes on the field. It had a really harsh impact on his mental health.

Loans are key to development, I just want to see us do it in a more proactive way than we have in recent seasons, one that ultimately benefits the player and the club.

 

[Steven Toast]

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure one of the requirements is having your own facility

Criteria for Category 1 Status

Category 1 academies stand at the pinnacle of youth football. To achieve this status, clubs must meet rigorous standards, including:

• A minimum annual budget of £2.5 million dedicated to academy operations.
• Access to world-class facilities, including indoor pitches and analysis suites.
• Highly qualified full-time coaching staff, usually with UEFA A or Pro Licences.
• Full-time education programmes integrated with football training, ensuring young players balance academics and sport.
• Advanced medical and sports science support.

So not much then.

 

[askewshair]

I didn’t realise that the premier league was the only league in England!

It’s not, but The Cat 1 status is part of the PREMIER Leagues Elite Player performance plan. And as I said earlier, only 3% ever play in the premier league.

 

[HCAFCHangout]

This is why I think our reserves should be playing in the East Riding County Leagues and not the reserve league. I'm not sure why the rule allows for non-league teams to have reserves further down the pyramid (Scarborough Athletic Reserves and Beverley Town Reserves both play in the Humber Prem, while North Ferriby, South Cave, Sculcoates Amateurs and Bridlington Town all have reserves in the division below) but professional teams can't. I can only speculate we don't do it because we wouldn't want to play a potential first team player and have his ankle snapped by a hungover Big Baz playing at centre half.

Greaves spent the season prior to his breakthrough at Cheltenham in League Two and it was sort of good for him (in a weird way) that we were relegated that season as he could step up. Also gave KLP a decent chance at playing in the first team too.

We sent Sincere Hall somewhere like Liversedge, Paul Iggulden to Stocksbridge Park Steels and countless other reserves were loaned to tiny coal mining villages with clubs that play at that level anyway. That's fine for giving players a first taste of men's football having come from the U18s, but most players in the U21s that join from other clubs have played men's football already in some capacity and having them play the reserves of teams that are in the division below our first team isn't going to bring their development on much. Likewise, sending players far away at a young age like we did with McAuley Snelgrove, Alfie Taylor and Ahmed Salam can be detrimental too, especially if they aren't playing. Snelgrove had a rough time at Crusaders; because they were only part time he ended up training twice a week and then the rest of the time he had **** all to do because he wasn't getting enough minutes on the field. It had a really harsh impact on his mental health.

Loans are key to development, I just want to see us do it in a more proactive way than we have in recent seasons, one that ultimately benefits the player and the club.

Yeah I didn’t think mentioning their loans were entirely relevant here as it was more about their opportunities into the squad. But it does show how players like Andy Smith etc haven’t had the pathway because we’ve consistently invested into the position and as a result he’s now going to try kick start his career at Gillingham. In another timeline he probably gets his shot if we went down this year as that seems to be the only way.

It’s not, but The Cat 1 status is part of the PREMIER Leagues Elite Player performance plan. And as I said earlier, only 3% ever play in the premier league.

I don’t get the point you’re trying to make? You don’t need a Cat 1 status to be in the premier league?

You also don’t need to consistently produce premier league level talent for a cat 1 status to be worthwhile. Also I would argue that’s a wider issue with the league that it’s consistently always looking into foreign talent for quick success. It’s not out the realms of possibility that with the incoming football regulator that the demand for domestic talent increases.

At this stage we are a club that isn’t going to generate a huge amount of revenue from matchday sales. Without TV revenue you’ve got to generate revenue through player sales. We as a club have earned a crap load more on academy sales than we have flipping players for profit in recent years. I’d rather £2.5m per year be put into the academy even those odds than signing a Dodo Sinik or the like. But that’s just me

 

[Barry Homeowner]

I've got him somewhere in between Duncan Norvelle and Graham Norton

Lucky Pierre: The busiest member of a three man bum chain

 

[Kalman II]

Criteria for Category 1 Status

Category 1 academies stand at the pinnacle of youth football. To achieve this status, clubs must meet rigorous standards, including:

• A minimum annual budget of £2.5 million dedicated to academy operations.
• Access to world-class facilities, including indoor pitches and analysis suites.
• Highly qualified full-time coaching staff, usually with UEFA A or Pro Licences.
• Full-time education programmes integrated with football training, ensuring young players balance academics and sport.
• Advanced medical and sports science support.

So not much then.

One of the things Man City did to their benefit was use their academy to make them money. If those players coming through weren’t going to play for Man City’s first team, they could at least make pure profit and sell them for millions.

Look at some of the players who have come through Man City’s academy without making a significant impact or even a senior appearance and where they are now. Cole Palmer (£40M), Brahim Díaz (€17M), Liam Delap (£15M), Roméo Lavia (£10.5M), Taylor Harwood-Bellis (£20M), James Trafford (£15M), Shea Charles (£10.5M), Gavin Bazunu (£12M), Carlos Forbs (€14M) etc. were all sold for decent fees.

 

[Jim the Tiger]

Yeah I didn’t think mentioning their loans were entirely relevant here as it was more about their opportunities into the squad. But it does show how players like Andy Smith etc haven’t had the pathway because we’ve consistently invested into the position and as a result he’s now going to try kick start his career at Gillingham. In another timeline he probably gets his shot if we went down this year as that seems to be the only way.



I don’t get the point you’re trying to make? You don’t need a Cat 1 status to be in the premier league?

You also don’t need to consistently produce premier league level talent for a cat 1 status to be worthwhile. Also I would argue that’s a wider issue with the league that it’s consistently always looking into foreign talent for quick success. It’s not out the realms of possibility that with the incoming football regulator that the demand for domestic talent increases.

At this stage we are a club that isn’t going to generate a huge amount of revenue from matchday sales. Without TV revenue you’ve got to generate revenue through player sales. We as a club have earned a crap load more on academy sales than we have flipping players for profit in recent years. I’d rather £2.5m per year be put into the academy even those odds than signing a Dodo Sinik or the like. But that’s just me

And that's all I was respectfully trying to ask/say. What is it that £2.5 mil is going to be spent on to vastly improve the academy from what it is now?
Not being a Cat 1 hasn't stopped us earning 10s of millions in transfer fees recently for academy products. It's not stopped the likes of Flemming, Jacob and Jarvis getting a chance.

If we take the pathway argument and I back down a bit and say you do have some point there, the difference Acun can make is to insist that any manager coming in utilises the youth players more. Im sure Steve Bruce made a comment once along the lines of 'playing academy kids won't keep me in a job'. What Acun could do, which I wouldn't be against, is stipulating that any manager has at least 2 academy products on the bench and takes a hands on approach with the academy system.

It's a decent and functioning set up, it doesn't urgently require money.

However, as someone has pointed out, most of these kids just aren't good enough, as upsetting for them as it is. I've seen lads in tears when releasing them from Fev Rovers, never mind a potential money spinning career, so I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be to realise you're not going to hit the big time with a club like City. The fact is we have a pretty decent strike rate of producing players that can play at a good level recently and players like Jacob and Smith will have good lower league careers but they were just that little bit short for the first team.

 

[SydneyTiger14]

Suggesting greaves and klp were just natural talents who happened to pop along at the same time is a huge insult to the hundreds of hours of work they put in along the way and the hours the coaching staff put in with them. It's funny Wrexham are now producing efl quality academy graduates all of a sudden, perhaps that's coincidence too or perhaps additional resources, better coaches, etc actually help players develop better?

 

[balkan tiger]

I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure one of the requirements is having your own facility

We have, it's the porta cabin at Cottingham.

 

[bradymk2]

Suggesting greaves and klp were just natural talents who happened to pop along at the same time is a huge insult to the hundreds of hours of work they put in along the way and the hours the coaching staff put in with them. It's funny Wrexham are now producing efl quality academy graduates all of a sudden, perhaps that's coincidence too or perhaps additional resources, better coaches, etc actually help players develop better?

who are wrexham producing