WAR! What is it good for?

[Citizen Kane.]

The Balfour declaration and the whole concept of Zionism was a completely warped attempt to try and instil some bizarre Biblical notion that a certain set of people should have the right to set up camp in somebody else's land. I think it took the British govt until 2017 to recognise that the declaration should have called for the protection of the Palestinian Arabs' political rights.

Only partially correct.

Zionism is a direct by-product of a thousand years of state and church sponsored anti-Semitism peculiar to Europe. If you read the works and speeches of the early Zionist leaders, their first and foremost goal was to get the Jews out of Europe to avoid any further persecution (of course many argue that had they succeeded earlier, millions would have been spared the gas chambers).

Most of the early founders of Zionism were avidly anti-religious and regarded the bible as nonsense. Herzl himself had his three children converted to Christianity.

This was why in the first few congresses, locations such as Uganda, Madagascar and even Texas were discussed as possible options for the solution to the 'Jewish question'. It was only the Russian delegation (the largest bloc and probably those who has suffered the worst share of the persecution under the Czars) walking out in protest that brought Palestine firmly onto the agenda.

Religious overtures of course existed within the Zionist camp - particularly among the Polish delegates. But it manifested at non Jewish govt due to the spread of evangelism during the Victorian era. Lloyd-George and Salisbury were both strongly evangelical, although it isn't clear if Balfour himself was.

It isn't really a bizarre biblical notion. The bible is pretty clear and the Jews without question once lived in and ruled that area.

What was bizarre is how, out of nowhere, it all suddenly became relevant again 1800 years later.

Madagascar would've been a cool option. You could have built a lemur zoo next to your water park.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Tony Blair has said that today's political mood is 'more anxious' than it was when he came to power.

Perhaps he should reflect on the fact that he, together with Bush, caused much of that anxiety?

 

[PINKIE]

Only partially correct.

Zionism is a direct by-product of a thousand years of state and church sponsored anti-Semitism peculiar to Europe. If you read the works and speeches of the early Zionist leaders, their first and foremost goal was to get the Jews out of Europe to avoid any further persecution (of course many argue that had they succeeded earlier, millions would have been spared the gas chambers).

Most of the early founders of Zionism were avidly anti-religious and regarded the bible as nonsense. Herzl himself had his three children converted to Christianity.

This was why in the first few congresses, locations such as Uganda, Madagascar and even Texas were discussed as possible options for the solution to the 'Jewish question'. It was only the Russian delegation (the largest bloc and probably those who has suffered the worst share of the persecution under the Czars) walking out in protest that brought Palestine firmly onto the agenda.

Religious overtures of course existed within the Zionist camp - particularly among the Polish delegates. But it manifested at non Jewish govt due to the spread of evangelism during the Victorian era. Lloyd-George and Salisbury were both strongly evangelical, although it isn't clear if Balfour himself was.

It isn't really a bizarre biblical notion. The bible is pretty clear and the Jews without question once lived in and ruled that area.

What was bizarre is how, out of nowhere, it all suddenly became relevant again 1800 years later.

Madagascar would've been a cool option. You could have built a lemur zoo next to your water park.

Texas seems like a good place to relocate tbh. Full of right wing fervent religious types.

As for the Bible stating that Jews lived in the area, that's a given, as for ruling the land that's contentious as it's been ruled by various different ethnic groups over the centuries, but it seems to feed into this Zionist notion that the Jews are the 'chosen people'.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Jews living in Palestine, as discussed that has been the case throughout history, and as you'll know, the ethnic melting pot is diverse with Arab Jews and Christians in the mix too.

The big schizm here is that millions of Europeans with no ties to the land, have descended into the area and completely skewed the scenario into one which now resembles an occupying state, suppressing the native population, stripping them of their rights, their land and their homes.

But if Texas isn't available, then I'm up for option B with the water park in Madagascar.

 

[Welshie]

Texas seems like a good place to relocate tbh. Full of right wing fervent religious types.

As for the Bible stating that Jews lived in the area, that's a given, as for ruling the land that's contentious as it's been ruled by various different ethnic groups over the centuries, but it seems to feed into this Zionist notion that the Jews are the 'chosen people'.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Jews living in Palestine, as discussed that has been the case throughout history, and as you'll know, the ethnic melting pot is diverse with Arab Jews and Christians in the mix too.

The big schizm here is that millions of Europeans with no ties to the land, have descended into the area and completely skewed the scenario into one which now resembles an occupying state, suppressing the native population, stripping them of their rights, their land and their homes.

But if Texas isn't available, then I'm up for option B with the water park in Madagascar.

No matter what way you shake it, that is absolutely a false statement.

There are plenty of people who have a problem with Jews living in Palestine.

 

[PINKIE]

No matter what way you shake it, that is absolutely a false statement.

There are plenty of people who have a problem with Jews living in Palestine.

Jews have lived there for thousands of years mate, Arab jews included. The distinction where people have a problem, is the creation of the modern state of Israel and it's subsequent persecution the Palestinian people.

 

[Welshie]

Jews have lived there for thousands of years mate, Arab jews included. The distinction where people have a problem, is the creation of the modern state of Israel and it's subsequent persecution the Palestinian people.

That's partially true.

But orginisations, not even just people, are built upon the very idea that Jews should not be in Palestine at all. That the entire region, which is now considered Arab, should be entirely Muslim.

Like I said, no matter what way you shake it, irrespective of the current state of Israel, there are plenty of people who want all Jews out of Palestine and would absolutely commit acts of genocide to achieve that objective.

This kumbaya notion it's all Israels fault is utter nonsense, just as nonsensical as the Zionist notion that the entire nation should be only Jewish based on desert scribblings.

 

[PINKIE]

That's partially true.

But orginisations, not even just people, are built upon the very idea that Jews should not be in Palestine at all. That the entire region, which is now considered Arab, should be entirely Muslim.

Like I said, no matter what way you shake it, irrespective of the current state of Israel, there are plenty of people who want all Jews out of Palestine and would absolutely commit acts of genocide to achieve that objective.

This kumbaya notion it's all Israels fault is utter nonsense, just as nonsensical as the Zionist notion that the entire nation should be only Jewish based on desert scribblings.

I guess your comment is also partially true, in that there are now groups that do have a problem with Jews living in Palestine

But that has come about because of the creation of Israel, and specifically the notion of Zionism. The fact that groups like Hamas and Hesbollah exist, is as a result of decades of Palestinian subjugation and what is perceived by Iran as an existential threat to them in the area. When you look at the behaviour of Israel and how it is backed, financially, militarily and diplomatically, you can see why.

As mentioned, historically Jews, Arabs, Christians and Muslims have lived in there for multiple generations. And going back further into history there are multiple ethnic and religious groups that have lived and ruled in the region. The idea that a few paragraphs from a book, somehow entitles one religious group as the 'Chosen people' who can invite anybody from around the world who choses their faith to live there, and continually encroach, steal land and resources from people who live there is bonkers.

Yet this is the modus operandi of Israel.

 

[Welshie]

I guess your comment is also partially true, in that there are now groups that do have a problem with Jews living in Palestine

But that has come about because of the creation of Israel, and specifically the notion of Zionism. The fact that groups like Hamas and Hesbollah exist, is as a result of decades of Palestinian subjugation and what is perceived by Iran as an existential threat to them in the area. When you look at the behaviour of Israel and how it is backed, financially, militarily and diplomatically, you can see why.

As mentioned, historically Jews, Arabs, Christians and Muslims have lived in there for multiple generations. And going back further into history there are multiple ethnic and religious groups that have lived and ruled in the region. The idea that a few paragraphs from a book, somehow entitles one religious group as the 'Chosen people' who can invite anybody from around the world who choses their faith to live there, and continually encroach, steal land and resources from people who live there is bonkers.

Yet this is the modus operandi of Israel.

There have been people who wanted Jews out of the region since the Roman Empire.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

There have been people who wanted Jews out of the region since the Roman Empire.

The Assyrians didn't want them there either, but that was purely political and mass population swaps were a cornerstone of their foreign policy to maintain control of their empire. They forcibly transferred over 5 million people, which is astounding given it happened nearly 3000 years ago.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Texas seems like a good place to relocate tbh. Full of right wing fervent religious types.

As for the Bible stating that Jews lived in the area, that's a given, as for ruling the land that's contentious as it's been ruled by various different ethnic groups over the centuries, but it seems to feed into this Zionist notion that the Jews are the 'chosen people'.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Jews living in Palestine, as discussed that has been the case throughout history, and as you'll know, the ethnic melting pot is diverse with Arab Jews and Christians in the mix too.

The big schizm here is that millions of Europeans with no ties to the land, have descended into the area and completely skewed the scenario into one which now resembles an occupying state, suppressing the native population, stripping them of their rights, their land and their homes.

But if Texas isn't available, then I'm up for option B with the water park in Madagascar.

"Millions of Europeans"

You've stumbled into the catch-22.

Jews have never seen themselves as 'Europeans'.

Mainly because they were never allowed to by actual Europeans.

This is the foundation of Zionism as an ethos. Millions of Jews finally losing patience over the fact that despite 1000 years of trying in earnest to integrate and contribute to society, they were forever seen as second class citizens.

I encourage you to read Max Nordau's speech at the first World Zionist Congress in 1897.

It's a certified TLDR, but here's a quote:

"Such is the existing "liberation" of the emancipated Jew in Western Europe. He has given up his specifically Jewish character; but the peoples let him feel that he has not acquired their special characteristics. He has lost the home of the Ghetto; but the land of his birth is denied to him as his home. His countrymen repel him when he wishes to associate with them. He has no ground under his feet and he has no community to which he belongs as a full member."

Zionism arose out of what is in my opinion a totally justified feeling of not knowing where else to turn, of adding up all other solutions and still coming to an equation that led to persecution and exclusion. It was one final exhausted roll of the dice.

Israel is the only country Jews have ever felt tied to for all of history. They weren't allowed to build ties with other lands.

 

[PINKIE]

"Millions of Europeans"

You've stumbled into the catch-22.

Jews have never seen themselves as 'Europeans'.

Mainly because they were never allowed to by actual Europeans.

This is the foundation of Zionism as an ethos. Millions of Jews finally losing patience over the fact that despite 1000 years of trying in earnest to integrate and contribute to society, they were forever seen as second class citizens.

I encourage you to read Max Nordau's speech at the first World Zionist Congress in 1897.

It's a certified TLDR, but here's a quote:

"Such is the existing "liberation" of the emancipated Jew in Western Europe. He has given up his specifically Jewish character; but the peoples let him feel that he has not acquired their special characteristics. He has lost the home of the Ghetto; but the land of his birth is denied to him as his home. His countrymen repel him when he wishes to associate with them. He has no ground under his feet and he has no community to which he belongs as a full member."

Zionism arose out of what is in my opinion a totally justified feeling of not knowing where else to turn, of adding up all other solutions and still coming to an equation that led to persecution and exclusion. It was one final exhausted roll of the dice.

Israel is the only country Jews have ever felt tied to for all of history. They weren't allowed to build ties with other lands.

I get that, but if you’re born in Europe to genetic European parents and grandparents, then you are European. Notwithstanding the issues that you’ve outlined for Jews in Europe. I see that that as a European problem, which we still face with various ethnic groups being singled out for prejudice

Is it still the case that Jews are treated as second class citizens in Europe ? I would argue that it’s not, and that there is in fact more awareness at tackling anti semitism than is afforded to Islamophobia or prejudice against other ethnicities.

So it comes down to cultural identity. And again, I understand the premise of Jews wanting a ‘homeland’ although personally I think mixing religion and geopolitics is a bad idea.

I guess it’s the execution of that desire, which has been seen as a God given right and imo a misguided instruction as ‘God’s chosen people’ that has seen Israel stepping way beyond its ‘entitlements’ and not only persecuting the native population, but stealing land, resources and turning places like Gaza into an open prison and now a killing field.

As I’ve mentioned, I think religion and politics do not make good bedfellows, but when this persecution and destruction is carried out in the name of Israel’s God given right to do so, then you can understand why Jews as a collective bare the brunt of Israel’s actions. When in fact it comes down to the warped vision of men like Netanyahu and on the other side people like Hamas who both want to wipe each other out.

 

[PINKIE]

There have been people who wanted Jews out of the region since the Roman Empire.

That’s not exclusive to Jews though. The whole region has seen various factions / religions / ethnic groups over the centuries that have vied for power at the expense of each other.

 

[Big Ern]

Fun fact, both Christianity and Islam are really Jewish sects.

 

[PINKIE]

Fun fact, both Christianity and Islam are really Jewish sects.

This is the nub of it really, the whole region is melting pot of ethnicity and cultural identity going right back to the ancient Canaanites.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

I get that, but if you’re born in Europe to genetic European parents and grandparents, then you are European. Notwithstanding the issues that you’ve outlined for Jews in Europe. I see that that as a European problem, which we still face with various ethnic groups being singled out for prejudice

Is it still the case that Jews are treated as second class citizens in Europe ? I would argue that it’s not, and that there is in fact more awareness at tackling anti semitism than is afforded to Islamophobia or prejudice against other ethnicities.

So it comes down to cultural identity. And again, I understand the premise of Jews wanting a ‘homeland’ although personally I think mixing religion and geopolitics is a bad idea.

I guess it’s the execution of that desire, which has been seen as a God given right and imo a misguided instruction as ‘God’s chosen people’ that has seen Israel stepping way beyond its ‘entitlements’ and not only persecuting the native population, but stealing land, resources and turning places like Gaza into an open prison and now a killing field.

As I’ve mentioned, I think religion and politics do not make good bedfellows, but when this persecution and destruction is carried out in the name of Israel’s God given right to do so, then you can understand why Jews as a collective bare the brunt of Israel’s actions. When in fact it comes down to the warped vision of men like Netanyahu and on the other side people like Hamas who both want to wipe each other out.

It was and is absolutely a European problem. Hitler had his 'solution' to the problem. Zionism was an alternative solution. It's a crying shame that we needed Hitler's solution to be carried out before Zionism was given a proper shot.

It's also a shame that so many Europeans are completely blind to the fact that their ancestors' actions gave birth to political Zionism as an alternative solution in the first place.

Europe created and then enshrined a movement that was politically and ideologically unmanageable, and then unleashed it on an indigenous population who had little to nothing to do with creating the problem in the first place.

Maybe we should just give Cornwall to the Jews and be done with it.

 

[brb]

It was and is absolutely a European problem. Hitler had his 'solution' to the problem. Zionism was an alternative solution. It's a crying shame that we needed Hitler's solution to be carried out before Zionism was given a proper shot.

It's also a shame that so many Europeans are completely blind to the fact that their ancestors' actions gave birth to political Zionism as an alternative solution in the first place.

Europe created and then enshrined a movement that was politically and ideologically unmanageable, and then unleashed it on an indigenous population who had little to nothing to do with creating the problem in the first place.

Maybe we should just give Cornwall to the Jews and be done with it.

I gave you a like for ticking off Cornwall on his bingo card.

 

[PINKIE]

It was and is absolutely a European problem. Hitler had his 'solution' to the problem. Zionism was an alternative solution. It's a crying shame that we needed Hitler's solution to be carried out before Zionism was given a proper shot.

It's also a shame that so many Europeans are completely blind to the fact that their ancestors' actions gave birth to political Zionism as an alternative solution in the first place.

Europe created and then enshrined a movement that was politically and ideologically unmanageable, and then unleashed it on an indigenous population who had little to nothing to do with creating the problem in the first place.

Maybe we should just give Cornwall to the Jews and be done with it.

Yeah send em down here mate

 

[PINKIE]

It was and is absolutely a European problem. Hitler had his 'solution' to the problem. Zionism was an alternative solution. It's a crying shame that we needed Hitler's solution to be carried out before Zionism was given a proper shot.

It's also a shame that so many Europeans are completely blind to the fact that their ancestors' actions gave birth to political Zionism as an alternative solution in the first place.

Europe created and then enshrined a movement that was politically and ideologically unmanageable, and then unleashed it on an indigenous population who had little to nothing to do with creating the problem in the first place.

Maybe we should just give Cornwall to the Jews and be done with it.

How was your trip to the people's republic of Kernow anyway ?

 

[Citizen Kane.]

How was your trip to the people's republic of Kernow anyway ?

Really nice, despite the dodgy weather (and people).

Cheers for all the ideas!

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Yeah send em down here mate

Plenty of room.

It's all sheep and wind turbines.