Off Topic Politics Thread

[Libby]

I hope you didn't think I was saying that, these guys are just thugs, immigration is a complex issue that we all need to TALK about

I'm really not sure ANYONE is suggesting these people are the anti-immigaration mainstream

I wasn't mate. I'm just pointing out we (as a society) have a tendency to be selective about these things.

But the outcome is exactly the same just the other side of the coin. Ignoring it is part of the problem and why we are where now.

 

[Archers Road]

We need to kill the lie that everyone concerned with immigration is a far right thug too.

That also creates the conditions to push people toward extremism. It's exactly the same as much a people want to pretend it isn't.

It’s very difficult to have a reasoned debate about immigration because it’s such an emotive subject. And people’s emotions are easily manipulated, by unscrupulous politicians, by the press (The Mail, Express and Telegraph have a lot to answer for imo), and now especially by social media. That’s not a read to avoid the subject, but any debate about immigration has to be conducted in the right climate. And right now is probably not the right climate tbh.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

It's a really tricky one, and I think everyone commenting here has valid points.

If anyone is interested in learning more about Islam - I found this book absolutely fascinating. It's by Nabeel Quereshi, who was brought up as a Muslim and decided (against his parents wishes, and against the dictates of Islam) to really try and find out more about Islam, in an attempt to become a better Muslim. He actually ends up eventually converting to Christianity through the process.

It's a genuinely fascinating read (an predictably got him into a bit of trouble with his family and community) but is a real eye-opener.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0310515025/?tag=not606-21

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

It’s very difficult to have a reasoned debate about immigration because it’s such an emotive subject. And people’s emotions are easily manipulated, by unscrupulous politicians, by the press (The Mail, Express and Telegraph have a lot to answer for imo), and now especially by social media. That’s not a read to avoid the subject, but any debate about immigration has to be conducted in the right climate. And right now is probably not the right climate tbh.

Yes, I'd go along with that. But it's critically important that we do so, and we listen and learn through the process from all sides of the argument.

 

[Libby]

It’s very difficult to have a reasoned debate about immigration because it’s such an emotive subject. And people’s emotions are easily manipulated, by unscrupulous politicians, by the press (The Mail, Express and Telegraph have a lot to answer for imo), and now especially by social media. That’s not a read to avoid the subject, but any debate about immigration has to be conducted in the right climate. And right now is probably not the right climate tbh.

Agreed mate. But ignoring it and calling everyone racist and thick as has been happening for years now can't continue.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

In an ideal world it does, yes. And I hope beyond hope that is the case and that we can somehow get to that point.

The issue, as I've said, is to do with integration and assimilation. To give a rubbish metaphor - if you're forced to take someone into your house, you expect your house rules to be adhered to. If that person craps on the floor, you'd be inclined to say "please don't do that, we crap in the toilet here". If they continue to crap on the floor, and then also say "well where I'm from, we crap on the floor. I'm not going to crap in the toilet, and what's more, I'd like you to learn to crap on the floor", well there's going to be an issue.

You are 100% correct. That was a **** metaphor

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

You are 100% correct. That was a **** metaphor

It was, wasn't it?

Apologies (but you know what I'm trying to say).

 

[Libby]

You are 100% correct. That was a **** metaphor

Literally!

 

[shoot_spiderman]

In an ideal world it does, yes. And I hope beyond hope that is the case and that we can somehow get to that point.

The issue, as I've said, is to do with integration and assimilation. To give a rubbish metaphor - if you're forced to take someone into your house, you expect your house rules to be adhered to. If that person craps on the floor, you'd be inclined to say "please don't do that, we crap in the toilet here". If they continue to crap on the floor, and then also say "well where I'm from, we crap on the floor. I'm not going to crap in the toilet, and what's more, I'd like you to learn to crap on the floor", well there's going to be an issue.

I don't think crapping on the floor is a good anology in any way
I'm sure they're being made to feel very welcome though
This requires give and take on both sides

How well do you think the Brits assimilate in Spain, generally?

 

[shoot_spiderman]

I wasn't mate. I'm just pointing out we (as a society) have a tendency to be selective about these things.

But the outcome is exactly the same just the other side of the coin. Ignoring it is part of the problem and why we are where now.

But the outcome is exactly the same just the other side of the coin. Ignoring it is part of the problem and why we are where now.[/QUOTE]
I don't think we are that selective, especially on here
The media and social media (not here, generally) paint a polarised picture
I think more people are disagreeing in a more moderate way

I don't believe anyone on here thinks these thugs are the mainstream
And I think we all know Immigration neeeds proper discussion and solutions

Let's be clrear as well, no country can have zero Immigration, this is a discussion about how you manage it, not just YES or NO as it is presented from some places

 

[Libby]

Yeah there's very few people who are all in one way or the other. But sadly as you say those views are the ones which are regurgitated the loudest.

I disagree that some people aren't selective on here. As I say you only have to look at the Brexit debate where anyone who dared show support for it was labelled as a thick racist.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I don't think crapping on the floor is a good anology in any way
I'm sure they're being made to feel very welcome though
This requires give and take on both sides

How well do you think the Brits assimilate in Spain, generally?

But that’s the point, it does require give and take on both sides - and we have a tendency, particularly on the left, to browbeat and put the blame for a lack of assimilation largely upon ourselves. I think that’s wrong, and the the give from a proportion of the Islamic diaspora isn’t anywhere near what it needs to be to create a successful society. I’m not asking for people to entirely take on our culture and values, just to accept them. And yes, that philosophy works for both sides too.

I think the ‘Brits in Spain’ trope is a bit of a false equivalence, in all honesty.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

Literally!

lol my point

 

[Libby]

lol my point

Yeah I think laces might have missed it

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Yeah I think laces might have missed it

I'm missing a lot at the moment!

In all honesty, I think we're all vaguely on a spectrum of agreement with all this though, which is good to see. Conversation and sensible discussion is the only way through this.

 

[Saints FC 76]

Oh I absolutely agree with you that there are systemic problems at play, and there were a lot of people involved in the recent unrest that were there for nefarious reasons. I also totally agree that we need educational reform and opportunity for the young.

My concern with your post is that it's a bit too easy (and incorrect) to frame this as a British problem, with British roots. We're seeing the same issues across mainland Europe in places like France, Germany and most chillingly Sweden. I'd also take issue with the second part of your suggestion that "the vast majority of muslims want to do well and integrate". I agree, they want to do well, but there's a large number that have no interest in taking on the values and cultures of the countries they are emigrating to, and want to transpose their own values and culture across. That's where the issues lie (along with the ones you list), and where we create a diaspora of people in places like Rotherham, Leicester etc which is problematic.

We've always had the same type of issues - take Brixton and the West Indian communities (I won't use the word ghettos) in the 80s. That, as generations passed, became diluted and the populations integrated as father became son etc. I have a (probably forlorn) hope that the same thing will happen with these new groups. However, the difference here is that it's part of the creed of Islam that the ultimate goal is to take over, transpose that value system and rule, and to question or criticise that is haram in Islamic law.

(Sorry, it feels like I'm repeating myself a bit there, but the current situation bothers me, and I struggle to realistically see how it improves).

I feel the same as you, and think you have put it across very well both in this post and your one before it. I think this might be my first post on the politics thread by the way - if only it was in better circumstances.

The riots have clearly been dreadful, and what's worse is that the horrific Southport murders have almost vanished from the news cycle.

I also have some other concerns that I think many others share and therefore need addressing by government.

I worry that the scenes over the last week make it easy to label people like myself, and many million others, who are extremely concerned with illegal immigration and the erosion of British values, as far right or racist, which I'm absolutely not. I also worry the government will not listen to these reasonable fears because they tar them as coming from racists.

You also make an important point about the need to address issues with cultural integration too, which as you say are not limited to, but prevalent with the muslim community. There are many cultures that have integrated into Britain and enhanced the country, and like you I hope more integration comes from the muslim community as we go down through different generations. But there is that concern you mention about the creed of Islam.

I am not taking away from the severity of these riots, and I hope my view that they are awful is clear. People with far right views, as well as the problems with cultural integration are both issues that need addressing and highlighting.

I'm a bit disappointed with Starmer's two speeches last week, too. He is right to condemn far right thugs attacking mosques/looting/fighting, but it's not just been far right thugs causing trouble. There has also been numerous videos of muslim groups attacking people and carrying weapons. In an astonishing video from Stoke, a police officer is using a megaphone to ask a large group of muslims to leave their weapons inside their mosque. I found that incredibly surreal and worrying. Two-tier policing and politics is another part of the reason for this civil unrest. The same force/approach should be applied to all, so I'm disappointed Starmer (and the mainstream media) didn't seem to address the awful behaviour and criminality on all sides.

With a young child, and another on the way, I am incredibly worried about their future and where our country is headed.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I am normally extra sensitive on migration/race discussions due to obvious reasons. However, with one glaring exception, I feel the discussion on here is balanced and by no means racially motivated. It needs the discussion, without the rhetoric that is occasionally spouted on here, by a poster the is so far down a rabbit hole that I genuinely believe there is no hope for them

What is tricky is for a white British person to discuss this without feeling they are somehow pushing an agenda.

I am a product of a multi culture get together, combined with this union happened in another culture still.

I have always been of the view of 'when in Rome', that sadly some don't adopt. The secret is not to lose your identity, but to be proud of it, whilst embracing the culture you live in and indeed, once live it you become.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I am normally extra sensitive on migration/race discussions due to obvious reasons. However, with one glaring exception, I feel the discussion on here is balanced and by no means racially motivated. It needs the discussion, without the rhetoric that is occasionally spouted on here, by a poster the is so far down a rabbit hole that I genuinely believe there is no hope for them

What is tricky is for a white British person to discuss this without feeling they are somehow pushing an agenda.

I am a product of a multi culture get together, combined with this union happened in another culture still.

I have always been of the view of 'when in Rome', that sadly some don't adopt. The secret is not to lose your identity, but to be proud of it, whilst embracing the culture you live in and indeed, once live it you become.

100% agree.

 

[......loading......]

I feel the same as you, and think you have put it across very well both in this post and your one before it. I think this might be my first post on the politics thread by the way - if only it was in better circumstances.

The riots have clearly been dreadful, and what's worse is that the horrific Southport murders have almost vanished from the news cycle.

I also have some other concerns that I think many others share and therefore need addressing by government.

I worry that the scenes over the last week make it easy to label people like myself, and many million others, who are extremely concerned with illegal immigration and the erosion of British values, as far right or racist, which I'm absolutely not. I also worry the government will not listen to these reasonable fears because they tar them as coming from racists.

You also make an important point about the need to address issues with cultural integration too, which as you say are not limited to, but prevalent with the muslim community. There are many cultures that have integrated into Britain and enhanced the country, and like you I hope more integration comes from the muslim community as we go down through different generations. But there is that concern you mention about the creed of Islam.

I am not taking away from the severity of these riots, and I hope my view that they are awful is clear. People with far right views, as well as the problems with cultural integration are both issues that need addressing and highlighting.

I'm a bit disappointed with Starmer's two speeches last week, too. He is right to condemn far right thugs attacking mosques/looting/fighting, but it's not just been far right thugs causing trouble. There has also been numerous videos of muslim groups attacking people and carrying weapons. In an astonishing video from Stoke, a police officer is using a megaphone to ask a large group of muslims to leave their weapons inside their mosque. I found that incredibly surreal and worrying. Two-tier policing and politics is another part of the reason for this civil unrest. The same force/approach should be applied to all, so I'm disappointed Starmer (and the mainstream media) didn't seem to address the awful behaviour and criminality on all sides.

With a young child, and another on the way, I am incredibly worried about their future and where our country is headed.

Can you point me to videos of muslims using weapons? It is culturally pretty normal for muslims to pick up weapons and defend their areas and businesses from violent looters. I have only seen one video of some armed asians - in an area where an asian taxi driver was attacked. Have you seen something else?

There is a vast difference between arming yourself to defend your community and showing up in someone else’s to start ****.

I know for a fact if I started racist **** in St Mary’s, weapons would appear. I grew up there!

 

[San Tejón]

I am seeing the same three names (Tate, Robinson, Farage - the unholy trinity) mentioned for the part they have played in promoting hatred towards immigrants and the recent riots, but their “job” was made easier by the last 14/15 years of conservative governments and their friends in the media.
Austerity has impoverished millions, making them susceptible to the diatribe spewed forth by certain sections of the media (national and social) blaming their impoverishment on immigrants and not the government.
2013, Theresa May sends vans around London boroughs aimed at immigrants, creating the “hostile environment”, something that grew and worsened throughout the party, giving us people like Patel and Braverman to take it to an unacceptable level of hatred towards immigrants.
Boris Johnson and his racist comments about various nations and their people were lapped up by the same people who have fallen under the spell of the unholy trinity.
The closure of all legal routes for asylum seekers, led to the flotillas of boats that keep turning up, with maximum media coverage to help keep the hatred bubbling.
The failure to process asylum seekers with any sense of urgency (deliberate IMO) has cost the country billions of pounds in housing costs, which again received maximum media attention, causing the impoverished nationals to resent the refugees being put up in “4 star” hotels, which are no longer 4 star hotels when they have been taken over by the government for this purpose. They then become soulless boxes where people can sleep safely and have access to a bathroom.
Brexit is also another reason for this unrest, because so many people (not all) who voted for leave, didn’t understand that we would still need immigrants to help fill our workforce and the leave vote created the situation where our immigrants are now less likely to be white and Christian than when we were still in the EU.
As Libby has said not everyone who voted for Brexit is racist, some would have had their own reasons, but I don’t think it’s beyond belief that anyone who is a racist did vote for it.
The immigrants are the scapegoat for the worst 15 years of rule by any political party in my lifetime (although the Thatcher years are IMO the start of the rampant capitalism that has made this country so unequal I don’t recall it being overtly racist) and it is likely to get worse, unless Labour can kickstart the processing of applications and get those who are accepted into the workforce and the waiting list drastically reduced so that it is no longer newsworthy for the troublemakers.
And now that we’re not paying millions, potentially billions, to Rwanda, maybe some money can be found to open a processing centre in France, which could stop most of the boats.