alonso -- one of the drives of the season ?

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cosicave said:

My opinion of Button's performance is that it was roughly on a par with Alonso's.

In fact, yesterday I ranked them joint equal 'Driver of the Day' in this forum's awards thread, well before becoming aware of exactly when his KERS trouble may have begun (which I heard earlier today from what I regard to be a credible source). But either way, this is a minor point. Once his problem became obvious (regardless of when it began), Button had a real struggle on his hands; and, in my opinion, did a sterling job to hold off a determined attack from what I believe to be a fundamentally quicker car; whilst suffering serious performance, handling and braking problems all at once.

P.S. Although of course, I do not contest your utterly credible source, Martial; one person's proof is not necessarily someone else's. And whilst I'm not suggesting any deliberate concealing of facts, we should always bear in mind that public statements are rarely accidental. My understanding is that McLaren were or still are investigating a fault first showing itself on the parade lap, supposedly rendering the KERS less than fully charged; although as I have said, this may be wrong. However, this is not central to my assessment of Button's drive in any case.
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i think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one cc --
 
martial artist said:
very easy to put everthing down to the supposed dominance of the red bull team every race , only flaw in that theory is that it is only one of the red bulls that has ever been dominant all season --
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It cannot have escaped your notice that Webber has been roundly criticized as dropping the ball this season. Even if this is to do with the Newey/Vettel alliance, he has been blown away, rendering his relative performance an embarrassing mis-match. The same might be said at Ferrari, but does not apply to McLaren in my opinion.

Vettel has done a scintillating job, grabbing the title with both hands well before the season's end - in the best car.
 
cosicave said:

It cannot have escaped your notice that Webber has been roundly criticized as dropping the ball this season. Even if this is to do with the Newey/Vettel alliance, he has been blown away, rendering his relative performance an embarrassing mis-match. The same might be said at Ferrari, but does not apply to McLaren in my opinion.

Vettel has done a scintillating job, grabbing the title with both hands well before the season's end - in the best car.
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roundly critisized by who ? -- takes a bit more than a bit of critism to convince me --

since when has any driver suddenly had a complete talent bypass from one season to the next ?
 
martial artist said:
roundly critisized by who ? -- takes a bit more than a bit of critism to convince me --

since when has any driver suddenly had a complete talent bypass from one season to the next ?
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Are Button and Hamilton also having a talent bypass by not matching Vettel in equal machinery?
 
BrightLampShade said:
So are we basing the speed of the Red Bull on Webber Vs Hamilton here? 2nd place driver Vs 2nd place driver?
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Who knows!

As Martial says the McLaren's are the equal of Red Bull, as Vettel is dominating both them and Webber, BUT, HAM and WEB are all having a talent bypass by not matching Vettel and therefore Vettel has lucked into the 2011 WDC as being the only driver who has done a solid job in a car that is only equal quickest.

Of course, to come to that rationale you have to ignore any idea that Red Bull may have had the faster car and that maybe Vettel has just done an awesome job this year and has had an equally awesome reliability record............. and that in fact Webber was made to look good over the last 2 years as Vettel had more car failures so the overall seasons points were closer than they would otherwise have been?

Maybe, just maybe, Webber has never actually been that good and is being shown up big time this year!?
 
martial artist said:
as i have been saying all season saint , i think it is vettel that is the difference between the two teams - maybe i am not so far off the truth after all --

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b94fq
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That's what we've all been saying martial! Vettel has done a superb job this year and shown a clean pair of heels to everyone. Even with a superior car, whether it is agreed he has it or not, the level of dominance has been staggering full stop.

oh, can we post random internet articles to support anything we say?

Cool.
 
Right, bear with me as I explain how the 2008 McLaren was the 3rd best car.

Fisichella is hardly a bad driver, and yet in a team where he'd already had 2 years experience a rookie (Kovaleinen) came along and beat him with 30 points to 21. In 2008 Kovalienen joined Mclaren where he preceded to finish 7th, behind both Ferrari and BMW drivers (with Heidfeld being one of the drivers, who as we all know got dropped this season). Unless Kovalienen suddenly became terrible that McLaren must have been a bit poor, making Hamiltons victory all the more impressive <ok>

There is my faultless logic to why the 2008 McLaren was slower than the Ferrari and BMW.

<laugh>
 
martial artist said:
fraid to say we dont actually agree on the red bull being the " best car " do we cc , unless webber has mysteriously had a talent drop out during the course of last winter --
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In terms of the best car, clearly we do not agree.
Taking the season as a whole, I can only tell you there is no disagreement amongst my associates. The McLaren is far better than it was at the start of the season, but even now it is only getting close. Newey and his team started work on the 2012 car a long time back, due to the significant advantage they held.

However, it is a shame that you choose to focus entirely upon our disagreement, in spite of being shown where we actually do agree!
 
allsaintchris said:
Who knows!

As Martial says the McLaren's are the equal of Red Bull, as Vettel is dominating both them and Webber, BUT, HAM and WEB are all having a talent bypass by not matching Vettel and therefore Vettel has lucked into the 2011 WDC as being the only driver who has done a solid job in a car that is only equal quickest.

Of course, to come to that rationale you have to ignore any idea that Red Bull may have had the faster car and that maybe Vettel has just done an awesome job this year and has had an equally awesome reliability record............. and that in fact Webber was made to look good over the last 2 years as Vettel had more car failures so the overall seasons points were closer than they would otherwise have been?

Maybe, just maybe, Webber has never actually been that good and is being shown up big time this year!?
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Have we already forgotten the "experimental" KERS unit that Webber was given at the start of the season that constantly failed race after race, and the occasional odd qualifying strategy that made sure that he was kept away from the Seb at the start of the season, putting him in his place?

Also, hand on heart, do you seriously believe that the Red Bull has not been optimised around Seb's diminutive frame? He's clearly the teams favoured driver. They've also got their [Seb's] reliability sorted out this season too, unlike McLaren, and before you say it, the Red Bull wasn't that much more unreliable than the McLaren last year which Seb only just managed to get a championship with last season, even though it was clearly the fastest package, as it has been this season.

So the McLaren is the equal of Red Bull? Are you serious? How much quicker has Seb been in qualifying, consistently, and by such big margins? You all seem to have forgotten the botched titanium blown diffuser that Hammy and Button had to struggle with at the start of the year too. I don't know if you are even being remotely serious, but this season Seb has put in some great performances, no doubt, but the ease at which he has been able to grab poles by 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 seconds, pull out 4 or 5 second gaps within the first few laps of a GP, get fastest lap after fastest lap on Sundays, and respond to anyone chasing him down at the end of a race at will, turning up the speed and easing away, spending most of the race driving well within himself and the car.

If you really believe that the Red Bull has been on a par with the McLaren all season long, then Seb really must be a truly amazing driver, the greatest the sport has ever, and possibly will ever, see. He's good, don't get me wrong, but the Red Bull has been an amazing this season and clearly the car to be in and it's only been in certain stages of the season where Red Bull have been working on some of their known weaknesses (like their Monza package) and then McLaren (and Ferrari) have closed the gap a little, but I'd wager that if you were to poll every F1 driver and pundit you can find and ask them which race they'd want to start the majority of (if not all) GPs this season, that they would say the Red Bull without having to think about it.
 
Aloonatron said:
Have we already forgotten the "experimental" KERS unit that Webber was given at the start of the season that constantly failed race after race, and the occasional odd qualifying strategy that made sure that he was kept away from the Seb at the start of the season, putting him in his place?

Also, hand on heart, do you seriously believe that the Red Bull has not been optimised around Seb's diminutive frame? He's clearly the teams favoured driver. They've also got their [Seb's] reliability sorted out this season too, unlike McLaren, and before you say it, the Red Bull wasn't that much more unreliable than the McLaren last year which Seb only just managed to get a championship with last season, even though it was clearly the fastest package, as it has been this season.

So the McLaren is the equal of Red Bull? Are you serious? How much quicker has Seb been in qualifying, consistently, and by such big margins? You all seem to have forgotten the botched titanium blown diffuser that Hammy and Button had to struggle with at the start of the year too. I don't know if you are even being remotely serious, but this season Seb has put in some great performances, no doubt, but the ease at which he has been able to grab poles by 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 seconds, pull out 4 or 5 second gaps within the first few laps of a GP, get fastest lap after fastest lap on Sundays, and respond to anyone chasing him down at the end of a race at will, turning up the speed and easing away, spending most of the race driving well within himself and the car.

If you really believe that the Red Bull has been on a par with the McLaren all season long, then Seb really must be a truly amazing driver, the greatest the sport has ever, and possibly will ever, see. He's good, don't get me wrong, but the Red Bull has been an amazing this season and clearly the car to be in and it's only been in certain stages of the season where Red Bull have been working on some of their known weaknesses (like their Monza package) and then McLaren (and Ferrari) have closed the gap a little, but I'd wager that if you were to poll every F1 driver and pundit you can find and ask them which race they'd want to start the majority of (if not all) GPs this season, that they would say the Red Bull without having to think about it.
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You have missed the irony of my post entirely!

I don;t agree with anything I have written, it was a point to show that martial's logic is wrong.
 
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