Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Star of David Bardsley]

So do you also think that people like Mick Lynch who stand up for working class people are “Marxist” ?

I don’t know enough about him but purely based on that, probably not. I don’t Marxism is necessarily a terrible thing.

 

[Staines R's]

How would you describe the society you are reading about in Nineteen Eighty Four mate?

I prefer totalitarian over fascist, Stalinist, Maoist and so on; captures the intent rather than the origin in race/class etc.

The National Conservative stuff is proto totalitarian but probably won’t evolve any further because the people involved are chiefly interested in money.

In my opinion.

I would definitely say that from where I am at the moment with 1984, he is describing a totalitarian state, and in some ways Fascist where control is completely in the hands of the government.
To be honest, I haven’t paid much attention to this National Conservative drivel but can hardly describe it as “Fascist”. As said to Bracknell, I find the liberal use of the word tends to dilute its meaning. All bar none of the real fascists I used to know were far, far worse than that.

As a side, where do you think, if anywhere, was Orwell alluding to in 1984….Germany or Russia ?

 

[Staines R's]

I don’t know enough about him but purely based on that, probably not. I don’t Marxism is necessarily a terrible thing.

He has come out and said that he isn’t, although has read Das Kapital. But time and time again the right wing press label him as such…all to smear and stoke fear in the readership. It’s pathetic.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

He has come out and said that he isn’t, although has read Das Kapital. But time and time again the right wing press label him as such…all to smear and stoke fear in the readership. It’s pathetic.

There’s a fear of Marxism and I don’t really understand why. The word seems to be misused a lot.

 

[Staines R's]

It may not be fascist yet, but I find the whole thing quite disturbing. It has the very cloak of respectability that you describe but is highly sinister in its nature and is connected to radical right in the US.

That may be so, and as I said to Stan, I’ve largely ignored the drivel because that’s as I see it….total drivel.
But my point is, the word “Fascist”, shouldn’t be kept being used as an insult to those on the right we disagree with…all in my opinion of course

 

[Staines R's]

There’s a fear of Marxism and I don’t really understand why. The word seems to be misused a lot.

Like the word “Fascist”, in my opinion.
And that’s my point.
If you haven’t already, don’t bother with Das Kapital….it’s hard going and I only got a couple of chapters in before I found myself wanting to slash my wrists in boredom

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Like the word “Fascist”, in my opinion.
And that’s my point.
If you haven’t already, don’t bother with Das Kapital….it’s hard going and I only got a couple of chapters in before I found myself wanting to slash my wrists in boredom

I’m struggling through a pretty dull book on the history of betting so might give up on that and just read the Quran or something.

 

[Staines R's]

Maoism is based on Marxist-Leninism. Mao was a dictator for life like Putin. He purged those who opposed him, and ignored his military comanders like Putin. He ruled through disorder like Putin.

So his communist regime was like Putin's in many ways. The main difference I can see is that his foreign policy wasn't expansionist in the way that Putin's clearly is.

But otherwise, they're peas on a pod imo

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All hail the glorious leader

 

[Staines R's]

I’m struggling through a pretty dull book on the history of betting so might give up on that and just read the Quran or something.

The Quran was actually quite good. A great story with lots of excitement.

 

[sb_73]

I would definitely say that from where I am at the moment with 1984, he is describing a totalitarian state, and in some ways Fascist where control is completely in the hands of the government.
To be honest, I haven’t paid much attention to this National Conservative drivel but can hardly describe it as “Fascist”. As said to Bracknell, I find the liberal use of the word tends to dilute its meaning. All bar none of the real fascists I used to know were far, far worse than that.

As a side, where do you think, if anywhere, was Orwell alluding to in 1984….Germany or Russia ?

I don’t know how far you’ve read but I think he looked at both pre war Germany and USSR and also Japan and thought ‘what if you push this as far as it can go’ and ended up with 3 geographical blocks where the system of control had different names but were fundamentally identical. The original ideologies of ultra nationalism, class war and emperor worship eroded to nothing and systems aimed at maintaining complete power over their populations remaining.

I find the National Conservative stuff sinister and creepy, regardless of whether it’s ‘fascist’ or not. I don’t think there is much going on which is genuinely fascist in the dictionary definition sense nowadays -

“Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.”

Even this definition should be challenged - ‘far right’ could include ultra nationalism, ultra individual libertarianism and ultra free market capitalism. The three do not necessarily go together and might actually contradict each other. ‘Right wing’ is a lazy and misleading catch all, a trap which I fall into often. ‘Fascist’ is just a meaningless insult which people don’t understand. Like Marxist.

 

[Staines R's]

I don’t know how far you’ve read but I think he looked at both pre war Germany and USSR and also Japan and thought ‘what if you push this as far as it can go’ and ended up with 3 geographical blocks where the system of control had different names but were fundamentally identical. The original ideologies of ultra nationalism, class war and emperor worship eroded to nothing and systems aimed at maintaining complete power over their populations remaining.

I find the National Conservative stuff sinister and creepy, regardless of whether it’s ‘fascist’ or not. I don’t think there is much going on which is genuinely fascist in the dictionary definition sense nowadays -

“Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.”

Even this definition should be challenged - ‘far right’ could include ultra nationalism, ultra individual libertarianism and ultra free market capitalism. The three do not necessarily go together and might actually contradict each other. ‘Right wing’ is a lazy and misleading catch all, a trap which I fall into often. ‘Fascist’ is just a meaningless insult which people don’t understand.

Having said all that National Conservatism is a sinister and creepy movement in my opinion, doesn’t need to be branded fascist or anything else for that to be true.

Ahhh….that makes a lot of sense (1984) now, with the three blocks at constant war, or sometimes peace with each other but then always at war with another. Shame you can’t be there constantly to give a more insightful interpretation of the book…it makes more sense.
Saying that, one of the twins is reading Animal Farm at school, and came up with the idea that of course Animal Farm is Russia….but that the other Farm is meant to be Germany. Might be a popular theory and glaringly obvious to some, but I’d never thought of it like that.
Never too old to learn

 

[Staines R's]

I don’t know how far you’ve read but I think he looked at both pre war Germany and USSR and also Japan and thought ‘what if you push this as far as it can go’ and ended up with 3 geographical blocks where the system of control had different names but were fundamentally identical. The original ideologies of ultra nationalism, class war and emperor worship eroded to nothing and systems aimed at maintaining complete power over their populations remaining.

I find the National Conservative stuff sinister and creepy, regardless of whether it’s ‘fascist’ or not. I don’t think there is much going on which is genuinely fascist in the dictionary definition sense nowadays -

“Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.”

Even this definition should be challenged - ‘far right’ could include ultra nationalism, ultra individual libertarianism and ultra free market capitalism. The three do not necessarily go together and might actually contradict each other. ‘Right wing’ is a lazy and misleading catch all, a trap which I fall into often. ‘Fascist’ is just a meaningless insult which people don’t understand. Like Marxist.

And for your second piece about Fascism….you write down what I’m trying to say, far more eloquently than I ever can.
Every revolution needs its academics, so I might just find a job for you yet ….come the glorious day

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

And for your second piece about Fascism….you write down what I’m trying to say, far more eloquently than I ever can.
Every revolution needs its academics, so I might just find a job for you yet ….come the glorious day

I can carry the bags.

 

[Staines R's]

I can carry the bags.

We have Ellers for that.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

We have Ellers for that.

Can we wear berets? He’d suit a beret.

 

[Staines R's]

Can we wear berets? He’d suit a beret.

No string of onions though

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

This is some sort of simulation and we aren’t a real country.

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[kiwiqpr]

I don’t know how far you’ve read but I think he looked at both pre war Germany and USSR and also Japan and thought ‘what if you push this as far as it can go’ and ended up with 3 geographical blocks where the system of control had different names but were fundamentally identical. The original ideologies of ultra nationalism, class war and emperor worship eroded to nothing and systems aimed at maintaining complete power over their populations remaining.

I find the National Conservative stuff sinister and creepy, regardless of whether it’s ‘fascist’ or not. I don’t think there is much going on which is genuinely fascist in the dictionary definition sense nowadays -

“Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.”

Even this definition should be challenged - ‘far right’ could include ultra nationalism, ultra individual libertarianism and ultra free market capitalism. The three do not necessarily go together and might actually contradict each other. ‘Right wing’ is a lazy and misleading catch all, a trap which I fall into often. ‘Fascist’ is just a meaningless insult which people don’t understand. Like Marxist.

Everyone needs a label

 

[kiwiqpr]

This is some sort of simulation and we aren’t a real country.

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You could win a cricket bat and ten minutes with sunak

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

You could win a cricket bat and ten minutes with sunak

Second prize is 20 minutes with him.