Off Topic Politics Thread

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I think that the prospect of a second Scottish referendum on independence looks certain. It is difficult to deny that Scotland should have the tight to determine the future of the country , especially as the Westminster government is so clearly working in a direction that is wholly unacceptable to this country and one that , as a more progressive country, it would be wholly unwilling to take. I totally agree with their right to hold a second referendum and think that this time the result will be resoundingly in favour. I would also argue that the UK has little relevance and would perhaps prefer a situation where it was dissolved as opposted to having indepednence referendums in each country. However, I do see that the whole scenario is ripe for mischief.

Scottish Independent does through up some interesting questions, though. I believe that Scottish people living in England will be prevented from voting and therefore will be denied a say in the matter. I assume that the majprity of these people wlill be against this move albeit I am not convinced that this will be as certain as anticipated. I would be curious as to how this leaves their nationality. Will they be allowed to become "English" or will the status quo be maintained and the fact that they are "Scottish" will have no bearing on their rights within England? ( i.e. Akin to the situation with citizens from the Republic of Ireland.) I do not think that preventing Scottish people living in England from voting would be democratic but it begs the question just how "Scottish" would you need to be in order to be allowed to vote. (I.e. Born in Scotland, Scottish parentage, ginger hair, fan of Bay City Rollers as a child, etc, etc.) Would this right also be stretched to Scottish people living in Canada, for example?

This leads on to the question of immigration. Will Scottish people be afforded greater rights to live in the UK than immigrants crossing the Channel ? If Scottish people have greater rights to live in England, does this mean that an English immigration policy could be deemed to be racist and discriminatory? Favouring Scottish nationals ahead of those individuals from Africa and Asia would surely be racist ? I hope we do not end up discriminating against immigrants because "white" Scots are deemed preferable to other races. There must be parity. Additionally, would England have to grant someone like J K Rowling political assylum to live south of the border ?

I concur with the fact that Scottish people are entitled to all monies paid in to any state pension pot up until the point of independence. I remain to be convinced that an independent Scotland will be unable to stand on it's own two feet from a financial point of view and that it will have to rely on services and things like education to sustain itself. Scottish students will have to get in the back of the queue when it comes to studyng in English universities just as is the case with restricted places for English students in Scotland. Scottish students will need to be treated no differently from those of other nationalities.

If I was in Scotland, I would vote for Nicola Sturgeon who, along with Jacinda Ahern, really represents what a "modern" politician should be like. It will be facinating because , although they are more than capable of governing themselves, they will find themselves in a weaker position democratically as Westminster will almost certainly work against the interests of Scotland. Nicola has a lot to due to make independence work and I am not convinced that the benefits will be quite as imagined - just as Brexit has been a disaster. My support is based entirely on the fact that the people in Scotland are demonstrably worse off being governed from Westminster - especially with the current government.

Unfortunately I have to disagree on this one.

Another 18 months of hatred and division is the last thing this country (referring to both Scotland and the U.K. as a whole).

Although I feel a great deal of sympathy with Scotland over Brexit and persistent Torying, I’m not sure that responding to it with Brexit plus plus plus is a good idea, a permanent solution to what Brexit and voting demographics argue could well be a temporary (generational) problem. The irony of Brexit is that British under 40s are probably the most pro EU grouping in the whole of Europe, galvanised by the reality of Brexit.

The SNPs approach to independence campaigning is also similar to Vote Leave etc in that they don’t give any concrete answers to any of the very real concerns presented for example the prospect of a hard border on GB (a totally abhorrent concept to me) is hand waived away as either ‘oh it won’t happen’ which has shades of the Brexiteer approach to NI, or ‘it’ll be Westminsters problem’.

There is also a big societal concern re a result like 51-49 in favour to leave (a very real possibility), which would get an independent Scotland off to a very weak start and could cause permanent and possibly aggressive social divisions. Whereas 51-49 to remain would leave the question ‘unresolved’ and campaigning for the third referendum would likely commence immediately.

This isn’t to say I don’t think an independent Scotland could stand up on its own, but it would be a blow to both Scotland and the remainder of the U.K. and one in which both would no longer be able to maintain the standards they could achieve together. I also can’t see a way in which they avoid an instant dive into austerity to re-level their economy.

Re Sturgeon, there is no doubting that she is a much more professional and clean politician than Johnson, but I just can’t get the love for someone who stands for sewing division and nationalism. The idea that Scottish nationalism is somehow different from other forms nationalism doesn’t fly for me, I just can’t see it as a positive. I am also not convinced the SNP have really done that good a job running the devolved elements of Scotland so far, beyond their own very effective PR.

I am unsure re whether another referendum is justified at this time, I mean I can’t argue that there isn’t a reasonable case with pro referendum parties holding the narrow majority in the Scottish Parliament, but you also can’t run a country (in this case the U.K.) properly with a significant portion of it constantly yo-yoing on whether to leave or not, this is the reason why these things should be held as once in a generation max. I don’t think there is another country out there that would allow back to back referendums on a matter such as this in such a narrow time frame. Quebec is probably the only example I can think of.
 
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Unfortunately I have to disagree on this one.

Another 18 months of hatred and division is the last thing this country (referring to the U.K. needs).

Although I feel a great deal of sympathy with Scotland over Brexit and persistent Torying, I’m not sure that responding to it with Brexit plus plus plus is a good idea, a permanent solution to what Brexit and voting demographics argue could well be a temporary (generational) problem. The irony of Brexit is that British under 40s are probably the most pro EU grouping in the whole of Europe, galvanised by the reality of Brexit.

The SNPs approach to independence campaigning is also similar to Vote Leave etc in that they don’t give any concrete answers to any of the very real concerns presented for example the prospect of a hard border on GB (a totally abhorrent concept to me) is hand waived away as either ‘oh it won’t happen’ which has shades of the Brexiteer approach to NI, or ‘it’ll be Westminsters problem’.

There is also a big societal concern re a result like 51-49 in favour to leave (a very real possibility), which would get an independent Scotland off to very weak start and could cause permanent and possibly aggressive social divisions. Whereas 51-49 would leave the question ‘unresolved’ and campaigning for the third referendum would likely commence immediately.

This isn’t to say I don’t think an independent Scotland could stand up on its own, but it would be a blow to both Scotland and the remainder of the U.K. and one in which both would no longer be able to maintain the standards they could achieve together. I also can’t see a way in which they avoid an instant dive into austerity to re-level their economy.

Re Sturgeon, there is no doubting that she is a much more professional and clean politician than Johnson, but I just can’t get the love for someone who stands for sewing division and nationalism. The idea that Scottish nationalism is somehow different from other forms nationalism doesn’t fly for me, I just can’t see it as a positive. I am also not convinced the SNP have really done that good a job running the devolved elements of Scotland so far, beyond their own very effective PR.

I am unsure re whether another referendum is justified at this time, I mean I can’t argue that there isn’t a reasonable case with pro referendum parties holding the narrow majority in the Scottish Parliament, but you also can’t run a country (in this case the U.K.) properly with a significant portion of it constantly yo-yoing on whether to leave or not, this is the reason why it was pushed as a once in a generation vote. Also I don’t think there is another country out there that would allow back to back referendums on a matter such as this in such a narrow time frame. Quebec is probably the only example I can think of.
The 49-51 either way is far to close for such a momentous decision as was the 48-52 brexit vote I called for a qualified majority at the time and since and believe it should apply in any future referenda.
 
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The Conservatives are no longer a unionist party, they are an English Nationalist party, and in many ways removing Scotland cements their power in Westminster - but there are too many traditional Conservatives, plus the impact of their image on the world stage, plus the wind power richness of Scotland that are blockers for them to ever accept Scottish independence.
Ian has also raised good points about being open about the other practical implications.
 
The Conservatives are no longer a unionist party, they are an English Nationalist party, and in many ways removing Scotland cements their power in Westminster - but there are too many traditional Conservatives, plus the impact of their image on the world stage, plus the wind power richness of Scotland that are blockers for them to ever accept Scottish independence.
Ian has also raised good points about being open about the other practical implications.

The claim that the Tories are an ‘English Nationalist Party’ is an anglophobic fallacy.

They do not represent England, they do not have Englands interests at heart above that of any other part of the U.K. Frankly they do not have the interests of any part of the U.K. at heart, England is no different in that regard.

They represent the wants and needs of themselves and their backers, nothing more.

English voters have the weakest level of political representation within the U.K.
 
The claim that the Tories are an ‘English Nationalist Party’ is an anglophobic fallacy.

They do not represent England, they do not have Englands interests at heart above that of any other part of the U.K. Frankly they do not have the interests of any part of the U.K. at heart, England is no different in that regard.

They represent the wants and needs of themselves and their backers, nothing more.

English voters have the weakest level of political representation within the U.K.

I agree that their first motive is self empowerment and financial gain and they are not Nationalists in the traditional sense, but their powerbase is in England and they concentrate their appeasement to to English voters first and foremost.
 
I agree that their first motive is self empowerment and financial gain and they are not Nationalists in the traditional sense, but their powerbase is in England and they concentrate their appeasement to to English voters first and foremost.

Their majority is formed in Rural England for now, but they also have power bases in North East Scotland, Southern Scotland and Rural Wales.

In terms of policy I see them less English Nationalist and more Anti-British these days.

Every action they take is against the interests of the U.K and it’s constituent elements.
 
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