Dr Strangelove (how I learned to stop worrying and love Boris)

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The Norton Cat said:
I'm not keen in PR because, as I understand the system, you would not be able to return your local MP in the same way that you can now.

A friend of mine, from Poland, who lives here showed me his election form a couple of years ago for his postal vote. They use PR in Poland (the d'Hondt system apparently) and the form was pages and pages in length and was very complicated. Rather than improving the system I think it would just lead to increased voter apathy.
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There are loads of options though. An independent body to monitor democracy and make it work is the right way forward.
With first past the post you get- like me - people voting for their second option because they want someone out - not what your preferred option is. That’s not good for politics it makes it feel pointless. Also you regularly get a minority government - more didn’t want them than did. In what way does that make any sense ? And significant minority parties get a place at the table. That would ensure they were answerable to us and couldn’t just make wild divisive claims. It would diversify politics. I get the localism bit but there are ways around that - other regional and local bodies and things like elected mayors. It’s all manageable. First past the post isn’t working.
 
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Pure River Slut said:
There are loads of options though. An independent body to monitor democracy and make it work is the right way forward.
With first past the post you get- like me - people voting for their second option because they want someone out - not what your preferred option is. That’s not good for politics it makes it feel pointless. Also you regularly get a minority government - more didn’t want them than did. In what way does that make any sense ? And significant minority parties get a place at the table. That would ensure they were answerable to us and couldn’t just make wild divisive claims. It would diversify politics. I get the localism bit but there are ways around that - other regional and local bodies and things like elected mayors. It’s all manageable. First past the post isn’t working.
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Why can’t half the good guys from the Tories join half the good guys from Labour and form a party everybody likes and tell the others to piss off. <laugh>
 
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rooch 3 said:
Why can’t half the good guys from the Tories join half the good guys from Labour and form a party everybody likes and tell the others to piss off. <laugh>
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I suppose what I’m saying is the pr model makes people cooperate. Majorities are then made by concession and negotiation. At least if they have knackers - not like the Lib Dem coalition model where they get their pictures taken and have no substance.
 
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Pure River Slut said:
There are loads of options though. An independent body to monitor democracy and make it work is the right way forward.
With first past the post you get- like me - people voting for their second option because they want someone out - not what your preferred option is. That’s not good for politics it makes it feel pointless. Also you regularly get a minority government - more didn’t want them than did. In what way does that make any sense ? And significant minority parties get a place at the table. That would ensure they were answerable to us and couldn’t just make wild divisive claims. It would diversify politics. I get the localism bit but there are ways around that - other regional and local bodies and things like elected mayors. It’s all manageable. First past the post isn’t working.
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I agree that it would be better to have more than just two realistic options but to some extent the onus should be on the smaller parties to make themselves electable. The flip side to that is that allowing smaller parties a way in opens the gate for more extreme elements to have a greater say. At the moment, the two main parties know they can't stray too far from the centre ground- look what happened when Labour allowed themselves to be hijacked by Momentum.
Like I've said before though, I don't think changing the political system is going to improve the problems in society. I think the reality is that its both the hardest thing to hear (for some people) and the hardest thing to do that will make the most difference and that's that we need a massive change in the way that people behave and think.
 
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The Norton Cat said:
I agree that it would be better to have more than just two realistic options but to some extent the onus should be on the smaller parties to make themselves electable. The flip side to that is that allowing smaller parties a way in opens the gate for more extreme elements to have a greater say. At the moment, the two main parties know they can't stray too far from the centre ground- look what happened when Labour allowed themselves to be hijacked by Momentum.
Like I've said before though, I don't think changing the political system is going to improve the problems in society. I think the reality is that its both the hardest thing to hear (for some people) and the hardest thing to do that will make the most difference and that's that we need a massive change in the way that people behave and think.
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But it’s swings and roundabouts. To become more electable you need a stronger voice. Plus I’d argue that ‘extreme’ elements need a voice. I can’t stand them but the Brexit party had a big impact and no seats. That means you can lie and not be accountable on one hand and also the many people who’ve voted for them don’t get their voice heard. Momentum should maybe be a party. They are trying to change Labour as was and it made the opposition weak. If they were a party, Labour them, Lib Dem’s, Greens would all have seats and would have to agree a consensus way forward and vice versa Conservative, Brexit party etc with maybe some cross over. At least we’d feel our vote added something and the different elements would focus on making things work collectively, not sniping at their near neighbours.
 
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Smug in Boots said:
Some people would still be blaming them if this government was in power for 30 years tbh.
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The thing is, they are to blame for the tories being in power, they do not represent the Labour party I was brought up to believe was the party for the hard working people of this country.
I always believed the clue was in the name as to who they wanted to support them.
It just shows the sorry state of affairs in this country when people go to the polling stations they are voting for who they think will do the least damage rather than the party they truly believe in.
Wouldn't it be great if someone started a party that wanted to look after the hard working people of this country, made it more beneficial to work than be unemployed, force people to get off their backsides who are able to work, and care for the ones that aren't, is that really too much to ask
 
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Smug in Boots said:
I don't understand why the budget is making internal UK flights even cheaper.

The pollution is much greater than a train and we're about to host a climate change thingy aren't we?

Lots of big words from the government but the actions seem contradictory.
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If they got the trains and buses sorted, prices right down and more regular and comfortable they’d get people out of cars. If they leave it to be the disjointed mess it is, a business not a service they won’t. In turn it would free up the roads for those who need it for trade and make it more pleasurable and efficient and people would connect again on public transport. It’s a win all round but the ideology stops the common sense.
 
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Pure River Slut said:
If they got the trains and buses sorted, prices right down and more regular and comfortable they’d get people out of cars. If they leave it to be the disjointed mess it is, a business not a service they won’t. In turn it would free up the roads for those who need it for trade and make it more pleasurable and efficient and people would connect again on public transport. It’s a win all round but the ideology stops the common sense.
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Rail prices are ridiculously prohibitive. I saw a Tweet from Andy Burnham complaining about a 20 minute journey on national rail between two locations in Greater Manchester costing 8 quid. He was saying he wanted London prices in Manchester. I had to laugh, it might be cheaper on the Tube but I used to pay up to £31 (depending on time of day) to travel for half an hour from where I used to live to Kings Cross.
Bringing rail prices down would make a massive difference to the way people travel.
 
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Smug in Boots said:
I don't understand why the budget is making internal UK flights even cheaper.

The pollution is much greater than a train and we're about to host a climate change thingy aren't we?

Lots of big words from the government but the actions seem contradictory.
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Comments about the budget and what's going on in the real world being completely different. One expert warned that there are not enough skilled people to fill the vacancies... Doesn't seem joined up...
 
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rooch 3 said:
Well that’s convenient <laugh>
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As convenient as handshake Boris nearly dying for sympathy while his incompetent army sent the elderly to their deaths and stopped treating special needs adults and sending health vulnerable public servants into the heat of battle.
Apparently Starmer also isn’t going to highlight that he was treated by foreigners like Johnson did so not to appear xenophobic, because Starmer isn’t xenophobic, prior to the said foreigner saying ‘don’t use me i think you’re an arsehole’.
 
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