Lockdown 2

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Warm Pouch said:
How do they determine COVID is the cause of death? If its a positive test then that can be pretty much dismissed anyway as we know factually, based on their own admission, that the test is not accurate.
How many of the 58,555 are as a result of COVID? That Public Health England data seems to suggest the lockdown is killing way more than COVID.
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The Covid Tests are not 100% accurate but they have improved over the duration of the outbreak. At the start of the outbreak the tests were thought to only have approx 70% accuracy. However, throughout this time they have always been far more likely to give false negatives than false positives. The current test has an accuracy rating of 94% for sensitivity (not giving false negatives) and 100% accuracy for specificity (not giving false positives). The biggest problem is not the test itself but the testing procedure, which was compromised at the start of the outbreak by poor implementation and lack of readiness for the volume of tests required.

https://www.imperial.nhs.uk/about-u...90-minute-coronavirus-test-is-highly-accurate

The process is still far from perfect, but is now far more accurate than it was.

I doubt we will ever know fully accurate figures for how many people died of Covid and how many died because of lockdown. At the start of the first lockdown a lot of hospital processes for other treatments were shut down in a panic, which will no doubt have long term consequences for a significant number of people. There is also an ongoing issue with people being scared to attend hospital for fear of becoming infected. Most hospitals are now back up and running relatively normally now that they have social distancing and quarantining measures in place.

There is unsubstantiated evidence that some doctors recorded deaths as Covid deaths at the start of the outbreak that may have been due to other causes. There is substantiated evidence that many Covid recorded deaths also involved underlying health conditions that would have resulted in death anyway - some in the very short term and some possibly years later. However, it is also now a matter of fact that deaths are only now recorded as Covid deaths if death occurs within 28 days of a positive test. This is better for measuring the spread of Covid, but also means that some Covid deaths will not be recorded as Covid as death can still occur after 28 days from testing positive.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/public-health-england-death-data-revised/

It is more likely that Covid infection rates and deaths have been understated rather than overstated. We will never know for sure how bad things would have been without lockdown measures, but the likelihood is that they would have been far worse.
 
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Joelinton's Right Foot said:
The Covid Tests are not 100% accurate but they have improved over the duration of the outbreak. At the start of the outbreak the tests were thought to only have approx 70% accuracy. However, throughout this time they have always been far more likely to give false negatives than false positives. The current test has an accuracy rating of 94% for sensitivity (not giving false negatives) and 100% accuracy for specificity (not giving false positives). The biggest problem is not the test itself but the testing procedure, which was compromised at the start of the outbreak by poor implementation and lack of readiness for the volume of tests required.

https://www.imperial.nhs.uk/about-u...90-minute-coronavirus-test-is-highly-accurate

The process is still far from perfect, but is now far more accurate than it was.

I doubt we will ever know fully accurate figures for how many people died of Covid and how many died because of lockdown. At the start of the first lockdown a lot of hospital processes for other treatments were shut down in a panic, which will no doubt have long term consequences for a significant number of people. There is also an ongoing issue with people being scared to attend hospital for fear of becoming infected. Most hospitals are now back up and running relatively normally now that they have social distancing and quarantining measures in place.

There is unsubstantiated evidence that some doctors recorded deaths as Covid deaths at the start of the outbreak that may have been due to other causes. There is substantiated evidence that many Covid recorded deaths also involved underlying health conditions that would have resulted in death anyway - some in the very short term and some possibly years later. However, it is also now a matter of fact that deaths are only now recorded as Covid deaths if death occurs within 28 days of a positive test. This is better for measuring the spread of Covid, but also means that some Covid deaths will not be recorded as Covid as death can still occur after 28 days from testing positive.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/public-health-england-death-data-revised/

It is more likely that Covid infection rates and deaths have been understated rather than overstated. We will never know for sure how bad things would have been without lockdown measures, but the likelihood is that they would have been far worse.
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Sorry mate but I ain't listening to Imperial College on anything. They've already proven themselves completely incompetent and highly inaccurate when it comes to data. No reason to keep going to the same source. On the basis of the models alone, we know they are useless. The test is nowhere near 90% accurate.

As that expert correctly notes in the video I posted earlier, the test is not fit for purpose. I think this is largely to do with amplification. Certainly the guy who invented the test, I posted a video earlier in the thread from him, did not believe the PCR test is fit for purpose for this kind of thing. With all due respect to imperial college, I think he would know better than them :emoticon-0148-yes:

We are clearly polar opposite on this if you honestly believe that deaths are more likely to be understated. I'm pretty certain they've been wildly overstated. As for lockdown, as Dr Yeadon states, it is not an effective measure in dealing with viruses of this nature. Hence whenever we unlock, we will be back where we were before we did.

It largely comes down to which scientists you choose to listen to. Our government has selected theirs, and you choose to follow that. I obviously see more sense from the other side of things. Equally as qualified and to be honest now more credible after Imperials modelling debacle.

However what I'm sure we can both agree on, is that censorship through media to prevent alternative viewpoints and scientific research is completely unacceptable. Its also a very dangerous precedent to set.

In terms of the excess deaths, the point is we do know lockdown is killing more than COVID is. That public health data (even with the inaccurate testing) clearly shows that. Largely due untreated problems, but also suicide and various other reasons for death showing excess data.
 
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Warm Pouch said:
Sorry mate but I ain't listening to Imperial College on anything. They've already proven themselves completely incompetent and highly inaccurate when it comes to data. No reason to keep going to the same source. On the basis of the models alone, we know they are useless. The test is nowhere near 90% accurate.

As that expert correctly notes in the video I posted earlier, the test is not fit for purpose. I think this is largely to do with amplification. Certainly the guy who invented the test, I posted a video earlier in the thread from him, did not believe the PCR test is fit for purpose for this kind of thing. With all due respect to imperial college, I think he would know better than them :emoticon-0148-yes:

We are clearly polar opposite on this if you honestly believe that deaths are more likely to be understated. I'm pretty certain they've been wildly overstated. As for lockdown, as Dr Yeadon states, it is not an effective measure in dealing with viruses of this nature. Hence whenever we unlock, we will be back where we were before we did.

It largely comes down to which scientists you choose to listen to. Our government has selected theirs, and you choose to follow that. I obviously see more sense from the other side of things. Equally as qualified and to be honest now more credible after Imperials modelling debacle.

However what I'm sure we can both agree on, is that censorship through media to prevent alternative viewpoints and scientific research is completely unacceptable. Its also a very dangerous precedent to set.
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I haven't seen that video as I didn't read back through the thread, just jumped in with both feet to expose you as a **** when the opportunity arose. Can you repost please?
 
Joelinton's Right Foot said:
I haven't seen that video as I didn't read back through the thread, just jumped in with both feet to expose you as a **** when the opportunity arose. Can you repost please?
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I'll have to look back later to get the one from the guy who invented the test they are using. He died in August last year. I think its use (I might have this wrong) was around detection of aids. Its quite complicated obviously as it gets into amplification for testing. I think countries all round the world are amplifying at very different levels, so there can't even be consistency in understanding world data.
 
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Warm Pouch said:
I'll have to look back later to get the one from the guy who invented the test they are using. He died in August last year. I think its use (I might have this wrong) was around detection of aids. Its quite complicated obviously as it gets into amplification for testing. I think countries all round the world are amplifying at very different levels, so there can't even be consistency in understanding world data.
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I will agree that the data around the world is not consistent and too many people/governments are manipulating in ways that best suit their agenda - or trying to at least. For what it's worth, I don't trust the way this government has handled this crisis one bit, particularly in respect to the way they rolled out track and trace and testing. Too many people have used it as a way to get themselves and their friends rich. I'm not even being party political about it as the alternatives would have made **** ups of their own with such an unknown quantity.

I am naturally distrusting of anything our government does, but when it comes to the dangers and infectiousness of Covid, the stories coming out of hospitals and GP's, combined with the background work currently going on at some of the nightingale hospitals, fits with this Covid being far more prevalent than is currently making the news.
 
Shall we retitle this thread Pouchy’s conspiracy theories?

Yeadon is relying on the old lies, damned lies and statistics theory. Strange how almost the whole world are adopting restrictions and the like which are extremely damaging to each country’s economy without apparently considering other theories and options. Or have they done so and essentially decided the alternative theories don’t hold up under scrutiny? More likely the case.

Why do the majority of scientists and, in particular, those advising WHO and various Governments not realise that the “extra” deaths aren’t down to COVID-19 but due to .... what? Because they are primarily due to COVID-19.

It does genuinely concern me when conspiracy type theories are advanced as too many people are willing to gullibly accept them without proper consideration. I’m not saying Boris and Co have got everything right because they haven’t but to consider Yeadon’s theories as real then it also needs to be explained why he is in the minority of scientists as demonstrated by the actions just about every other country is taking which reflect the general thrust of what Boris and Co are taking.

There are a significant number of extra deaths that is not open to dispute. If it’s not Covid-19 then what exactly is causing them?
 
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The #Cans Master said:
Shall we retitle this thread Pouchy’s conspiracy theories?

Yeadon is relying on the old lies, damned lies and statistics theory. Strange how almost the whole world are adopting restrictions and the like which are extremely damaging to each country’s economy without apparently considering other theories and options. Or have they done so and essentially decided the alternative theories don’t hold up under scrutiny? More likely the case.

Why do the majority of scientists and, in particular, those advising WHO and various Governments not realise that the “extra” deaths aren’t down to COVID-19 but due to .... what? Because they are primarily due to COVID-19.

It does genuinely concern me when conspiracy type theories are advanced as too many people are willing to gullibly accept them without proper consideration. I’m not saying Boris and Co have got everything right because they haven’t but to consider Yeadon’s theories as real then it also needs to be explained why he is in the minority of scientists as demonstrated by the actions just about every other country is taking which reflect the general thrust of what Boris and Co are taking.

There are a significant number of extra deaths that is not open to dispute. If it’s not Covid-19 then what exactly is causing them?
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Ah the typical sheeple response. Its a conspiracy. So you honestly these highly qualified virologists are just a bunch of conspiracy theorists? This is just typical sheep behaviour. Government and BBC say this scientist is right, so its true and I don't to hear any alternative. To be honest its pretty dangerous when the population is so unable to engage their own brain.
 
https://summit.news/2020/11/18/top-...x-ever-perpetrated-on-an-unsuspecting-public/

Another moron educated at Cambridge University.

Wasted his time spending his life devoted to the subject clearly, only to become a tin foil looney...

Nothing to see here. Problem is for all these people quoting WHO, Government, BBC, there is a swell of anger developing within the scientific community. A lot of this goes against the very principles of disease control 101. So they don't like having spent their whole life devoted to it, only to have some moron who watches the BBC tell them they don't know what they are talking about. They kinda do. We've already had the Great Barrington declaration, which has been mysteriously kiboshed by the media.

People are more intelligent than just to follow these tools over a cliff like a lemming.
 
Warm Pouch said:
Ah the typical sheeple response. Its a conspiracy. So you honestly these highly qualified virologists are just a bunch of conspiracy theorists? This is just typical sheep behaviour. Government and BBC say this scientist is right, so its true and I don't to hear any alternative. To be honest its pretty dangerous when the population is so unable to engage their own brain.
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The bloke was lead scientist at Pfizer for years his job was literally to do with respiratory diseases and he isn’t denying there isn’t COVID. He is saying it peaked in Spring hence the huge number of deaths but it swept through most of the susceptible population and a lot of people already had prior immunity from other coronavirus. The problem we have are scientists not wanting to hear anything other than we are doomed. they were even denying a basic scientific fact that people could and will become immune, which has now shown from a huge study to be correct.
Nobody is denying it isn’t here and it’s is killing people but what he is saying is that these deaths that are being put down as COVID may well not be COVID due to the failings of the PCR test. Nobody will say what the false positive rate is for PCR.
 
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Warm Pouch said:
https://summit.news/2020/11/18/top-...x-ever-perpetrated-on-an-unsuspecting-public/

Another moron educated at Cambridge University.

Wasted his time spending his life devoted to the subject clearly, only to become a tin foil looney...

Nothing to see here. Problem is for all these people quoting WHO, Government, BBC, there is a swell of anger developing within the scientific community. A lot of this goes against the very principles of disease control 101. So they don't like having spent their whole life devoted to it, only to have some moron who watches the BBC tell them they don't know what they are talking about. They kinda do. We've already had the Great Barrington declaration, which has been mysteriously kiboshed by the media.

People are more intelligent than just to follow these tools over a cliff like a lemming.
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Ahh, the Conspiracy Leader response. I've picked my expert and he's better than your expert because I like what he says.

Reminds me of a Goodies episode where they were trying to find ways to sell string and came up with a survey result saying 9 out of 10 doctors would recommend eating string. When queried by 2 of the 3 Goodies the third Goodie said something to the effect of "you want to see the 9 doctors who recommended it." with a raising of the eyebrows.

Quote from Talk Radio.

"Dr Mike Yeadon, a vocal critic of the lockdown measures has called to see “what is the underlying evidence” that the United Kingdom is heading for a second wave, he claims that “When you look at the data… at most we’re in a second ripple.”"

From Government website.

"Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate
Weekly 2,225 Weekly number of deaths where COVID-19 is mentioned as a cause on the death certificate, registered during the week ending Friday, 6 November 2020.
Total
63,873"

Hardly a ripple.

Too many people concerned about "me, me, me" as opposed to "us, us, us."
 
Ha ha, according to the latest breaking news, people shopping in supermarkets are the biggest transmitter of the virus in the UK! Not golf courses! Bastards! <grr>
 
Warm Pouch said:
https://summit.news/2020/11/18/top-...x-ever-perpetrated-on-an-unsuspecting-public/

Another moron educated at Cambridge University.

Wasted his time spending his life devoted to the subject clearly, only to become a tin foil looney...

Nothing to see here. Problem is for all these people quoting WHO, Government, BBC, there is a swell of anger developing within the scientific community. A lot of this goes against the very principles of disease control 101. So they don't like having spent their whole life devoted to it, only to have some moron who watches the BBC tell them they don't know what they are talking about. They kinda do. We've already had the Great Barrington declaration, which has been mysteriously kiboshed by the media.

People are more intelligent than just to follow these tools over a cliff like a lemming.
Click to expand...

" Another moron educated at Cambridge University "

I'll ask both my moronic daughters, they were both educated at Cambridge University so they're bound to know a canny few.
 
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