Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
I agree with a lot in there but the only thing I would say is that if your background is poor and underprivileged and that has been the case for your ancestors going back through several generations it is very easy to develop a perpetual victim culture and that is something that gets reinforced from time to time by the actions of certain politicians and their advisers. It would be nice to think that the records won't be altered white washed or simply erased when the inquest into the Windrush scandal is eventually held. Call me a cynic if you like but I would not trust any politician to be honest and open about this in due course. We live in a society where it is unfashionable for a politician to behave with honour - the interests of the party and their own ambition have brought us to the precipice now where nobody has any trust or respect for any politician.

Windrush is slightly different in that it relates to Black immigrants - not born here. But I take your point about the possible effect on the black population.

I agree with your comment about honour among politicians. I'm sorry to see that Boris has not yet published the Russian Inquiry documents, for example.
 

Alright Wills, just got in, had my dinner so I’ll answer your points in black...

1/ So are you saying the causes and aims of BLM In the U.K. and the US are different or the same ? We live in the U.K. therefore I would think you would take more notice of what BLMUK are saying eg the dismantling of Capitalism....Please correct me if I’m wrong.

2/ Are you saying that the fundraiser that has raised over a million quid under the name of BLM is NOT from BLM ? If so that’s pretty scary stuff and I’m sure the real movement would be doing their upmost to get the money that should rightfully be theirs

3/ I was only questioning you Wills.....not trying to trick you, just to gain more understanding. As I’ve said, I find it rather hypocritical to pick which of the MAIN aims of BLM you want to agree with and which you don’t.... these aren’t aims hidden on page 253 of a manifesto, these are MAIN objectives.
Your talk about religion is lost on me to be honest as I’m anti religion, I can understand why some take comfort in it but it’s not for me.
The QPR makes a little bit more sense, however I once again state you are disagreeing with one of the principle objectives of BLM (in fact more than one)

4/ Yeah probably agree with that.....

5/ see 2

6/ See 3 (but agree, we are ALL hypocrites in some way)

7/ Surely I’m allowed to question.....especially if I don’t agree with your stance. As I’ve said before, I do enjoy debating with you, however this won’t stop me asking you questions that you might sometimes find difficult to justify your answers.
Don't get the point of the last ‘football lads‘ bit as I don’t support them either.

Sorry if my answers are a bit rushed and disjointed, haven’t long been home.
 
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I suspected you may say that, and Stortford put forward the same idea. It's almost certainly a factor, and probably a big one. I'd want to explore two things further to understand how much of a factor that is:
(1) What are the rates of single parent families in poorer caucasian demographics - and are the comparative life outcomes (education, judicial treatment) etc similar for these two groups
(2) What are the rates of single parent families for families in countries such as Jamaica, and how those rates compare to Jamaican families in the UK - to understand if this is a cultural issue, or an issue which arises because of how cultures are treated within the UK. Hope that makes sense?

I think there are two other significant factors as to why it's easier for someone from an Asian background to 'achieve more' in the UK than someone from a Black African/Caribbean background.

(a) Black people were historically treated far worse than people from an Asian background. I won't repeat the details of the brutality of the slave trade in full here, with humans treated worse than cattle, tied up and thrown overboard to stop infection spreading to the other 'cattle' chained up in boxes on a ship. This level of brutality and dehaminsation was far worse than anything experienced by the Asian communities during the period of Empire. Dehuamnisation is the key word there for me as I don't think it's possible - let alone easy - for that sort of ingrained mindset to be overcome in a generation or two. It took decades to bring about the end of formal segregation, and will take decades to fully repair the psychological impact of the dehumanisation of those with black skin. I appreciate this is hard to 'prove', but I hope you can at least see the logic.

(b) I think the immigration pattern of Asians into the UK has been very different from that of Black African/Caribbean people. A prominent example is that East African Asians were typically well educated and in Government / Administrative posts in East Africa (placed there by Empire). Hardly a surprise that when this cohort of people emigrated to the UK, they outperformed individuals from the Caribbean who came to the UK to do vocational work like nursing?

I don't in any way reject the idea that the issue of single-parent families in Afro-Caribbean UK cultures has an impact on the outcomes of the kids who grow up in those single parent families. But I do think we then need to explore why there is a higher rate of single parent families in those cultures to start with and look at the other important factors. And those other underpinning factors are partially what the BLM movement speaks to.

i can tell you that the initial bunch of chinese who came over were poor, uneducated and typically villagers who were primarily very low income farmers. From maybe the 97 onwards when the british government handed out british citizenship to a lot of public official have the middle class chinese started coming over (maybe a few before then as well). Nowadays, it's the rich chinese (from mainly predominantly) who are visiting the UK as students and maybe staying if possible
 
i can tell you that the initial bunch of chinese who came over were poor, uneducated and typically villagers who were primarily very low income farmers. From maybe the 97 onwards when the british government handed out british citizenship to a lot of public official have the middle class chinese started coming over (maybe a few before then as well). Nowadays, it's the rich chinese (from mainly predominantly) who are visiting the UK as students and maybe staying if possible

Interesting - would be interesting to see the different 'achievement levels' [for lack of a better phrase] for those different cohorts.
 
Just checked on the UK Gov website (bit out of date - 2015/16 entry year)

% of pupils getting A*-C in GCSE Maths and English:

Best - Chinese 83%

Worst - White on free school meals 34%; non FSM 67%

Black - FSM 49%; non FSM 62%

We had a discussion on these stats a few [okay a lot of] pages ago - I don't think the comparison used here is quite fair. Here is my post from a few pages back:

The statistics that Bradshaw cites, which if memory serves come from a few reports from the Rowntree foundation, are interesting. What's important to note is that the 'measurement' of working class in the education system is based on eligibility for free school meals. A quick google shows that 13% of white kids in high school are eligible for free school meals. That contrasts with 25% of Caribbean or African boys. So the comparison is being made between the poorest 13% of one population and the poorest 25% of another population. If you assume an equal distribution of innate intelligence across all kids, regardless of ethnicity [which anyone who isn't a massive racist will do], you would expect the poorest 13% of one population to score lower on average across every metric [exams, university, later employment] than the poorest 25% of another population as the 25% of the second population has a larger spread. In essence, the comparison isn't fit for purpose unless you're comparing the poorest 25% of both populations, not 13% of one and 25% of the other.

What I'd perhaps add is that it's possible for there to be two significant challenges that co-exist - an issue for poorer white boys in the education system, as well as an issue for black students. The two don't necessarily cancel each other out, so to speak.
 
From BLMUK's Twitter account - "We're guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately and systematically harm Black people in Britain and around the world"

Interestingly..."We assure you that all organisers involved with BLM UK are Black (not politically Black....)...."
 
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We had a discussion on these stats a few [okay a lot of] pages ago - I don't think the comparison used here is quite fair. Here is my post from a few pages back:

The statistics that Bradshaw cites, which if memory serves come from a few reports from the Rowntree foundation, are interesting. What's important to note is that the 'measurement' of working class in the education system is based on eligibility for free school meals. A quick google shows that 13% of white kids in high school are eligible for free school meals. That contrasts with 25% of Caribbean or African boys. So the comparison is being made between the poorest 13% of one population and the poorest 25% of another population. If you assume an equal distribution of innate intelligence across all kids, regardless of ethnicity [which anyone who isn't a massive racist will do], you would expect the poorest 13% of one population to score lower on average across every metric [exams, university, later employment] than the poorest 25% of another population as the 25% of the second population has a larger spread. In essence, the comparison isn't fit for purpose unless you're comparing the poorest 25% of both populations, not 13% of one and 25% of the other.

What I'd perhaps add is that it's possible for there to be two significant challenges that co-exist - an issue for poorer white boys in the education system, as well as an issue for black students. The two don't necessarily cancel each other out, so to speak.
Fair challenge
My point was more about the fact that there isn't always an acknowledgement of the existence of a white underclass - a section of the population that could claim to have been written off in the same way that many young black men in particular would (with some justification) claim

And of course even with the %s you quote above this equates to a significantly larger absolute number of poorly achieving white youngsters
 
Fair challenge
My point was more about the fact that there isn't always an acknowledgement of the existence of a white underclass - a section of the population that could claim to have been written off in the same way that many young black men in particular would (with some justification) claim

And of course even with the %s you quote above this equates to a significantly larger absolute number of poorly achieving white youngsters

White working class boys in particular it has been reported
 
It would indeed by interesting to see the statistics comparing white/black i.e. African and Caribbean, and also black UK/ black Jamaican. I'm not necessarily saying the black UK population has more single mothers than white - I don't know - but it does seem that those black children may suffer more adversely from not having a father figure/figure of authority in their lives, than white children. When immigrants came over from the W.I. in the 1950's they were mostly conservative, god-fearing family units. It may be that the changes to liberalism in the 1960's and 1970's caused more problems in the black community than the white community.

Slavery - I'm going to need a lot more convincing that something that happened to other people two centuries ago is still impacting people today, other than as an excuse for victimhood. I won't make the gruesome comparison of which is worst, slavery or the Holocaust where 6 million Jewish people were deliberately put to death, but if the slavery theory works to affect the black community, how is it that the Jewish community have put the horrors on Continental Europe (within living memory of some) behind them? Those Jewish victims that survived and their descendants will talk about what happened - it must not be forgotten - but they don't use it as an excuse for underachievement. They've pushed on, and on the whole, have made great successes with their lives.

I accept your point about inheriting Ugandan etc Asian business people. But, as Stortford has said, many Asians came straight to the UK from Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka etc and have started successful businesses. I love it when I see a successful Black Brit in any field - of course, we see it in sport, but I'd like to see more businesses opening up run by Black Brits. And I'd like to see less victimhood. Where there are racist cops, they have to be weeded out and got rid of. And I want to see the police use body cameras at all times and not be able to switch them off unilaterally. But I do have sympathy with the police too, because we know there are a lot of knives out there, and the police have to act. It was a joke but true that in days past, if white criminals got nabbed, there was an element of "I'll come quietly". Where there have been black deaths in custody, while I do not absolve the police of responsibility if and when it is due, there does seem to be a tendency for black suspects to question authority and fight the police physically. Rayshard Brooks was a case in point. Rather than go down to the station with the cops and sort stuff out, he decides to take them on in a fight, steals a taser and fires it at one of them. What happened next was totally unjustified, and one of the cops has been charged with murder. But the fact is, if Brooks had gone quietly, he would be alive and a free man today.

Agree on the first para. On the second, we will perhaps never agree as it is harder to prove either way, but I think the comparison with the Holocaust falls down for a few reasons even though I can understand where you are coming from. Firstly, because many of those Jewish individuals who fled in the 1930s were able to escape with some level of wealth. Secondly, because all of those who escaped had a higher initial level of education. And thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, because they were [on the whole] white, and the fundamental point I was making with slavery is that the deeply ingrained dehumanisation of black people was applied to a whole race. By contrast, you can't tell at a glance that someone is Jewish, and there isn't (or wasn't) that same therefore that same type of ingrained racism. If anything, I'd say the contrasting paths of the two different people group's therefore precisely proves my point! However, I appreciate we're unlikely to agree on this, and happy to disagree agreeably. I may do some more research into this at some point, as I'm hypothesising at the moment and I'm sure there would be literature on this somewhere.

I have sympathy with both sides too - the police have an extremely difficult job, I hope no one would deny that.

[As an aside, I don't think it is necessarily something that has been 'put behind them' given the actions of the State of Israel, but that's a whole separate discussion I'm not going to get into!!]
 
Fair challenge
My point was more about the fact that there isn't always an acknowledgement of the existence of a white underclass - a section of the population that could claim to have been written off in the same way that many young black men in particular would (with some justification) claim

And of course even with the %s you quote above this equates to a significantly larger absolute number of poorly achieving white youngsters

I don't disagree with that at all.
 
From BLMUK's Twitter account - "We're guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately and systematically harm Black people in Britain and around the world"

Interestingly..."We assure you that all organisers involved with BLM UK are Black (not politically Black....)...."

The same then as on the BLMUK go fund me page.

I assume that Wills finally will agree that this is the official stance.