Serious takeover talk

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Kittenmittons said:
That's the club's operating income and outgoings. Let's assume that Donald paid the other £3m of that out of his own pocket and ignore it.

So separate of that, Donald's company (Madrox) has by their own admission loaned £25m from the club to pay the SBC debt that he agreed to personally pay off as part of the deal to buy the club. We know this was paid in August last year as SBC removed their charge over the club for this money. The debt outstanding is now closer to £20m according to Methven, whether that was through Donald drip feeding it back in, Sartori's cash or anything else, we don't know, but I have no reason to doubt that it's around £20m if they say it is. If they were agreeing to pay back £5m a year, I'd not even be posting this right now, but they aren't, hence why I think there should be some schedule in place to pay that back.

Anyway, in addition, Donald agreed to pay Short for his shares. A £5m down payment was made in May of last year, however as this does not appear on the accounts, we don't know how or when this was paid in practice. Let's assume it's legit £5m from SJD holdings for simplicity!

That left £10m. £400k was wiped off by Short for staffing costs, so £9.6m.

Then in September, DOnald said that 2-3m was wiped off by Short to cover the unexpected costs like Alvarez. That left him with (let's say) £6.6m to pay to Short.

In April, SAFC took out a short term loan with Close bros for £11-12m to cover 'various black holes - see below from Charlie Methven's RAWA meeting:

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So the actual black holes were Donald's payments to Short. Here is the direct quote from Donald on that (I've linked to the time but if it doesn't work, the 60 seconds from 1:12:42:

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So as you can see, what we are asking, is if the club paid back Close Bros for the entire sum in July, then whatever was paid to Short from that sum needs to come back to the club at some point. That's just fact isn't it? The agreement was never for the club to pay for that as a gift, it was that the parachute payments should only be used if Donald could not pay, and then Donald would owe the club as per the SBC debt. As I said before, I would assume that will come back in as a loan like the rest of the payments that had been secured against the parachute payments. I will defer any comment on that until the accounts in April.

The metaphorical 'black hole' I refer to is actually just that once money gets paid out via madrox, we have an unaudited layer of accounts that effectively stops us knowing who has been paid what. It's not illegal, or immoral or any of that, so don't think I'm accusing anyone of a crime. It's just uncomfortable because there are personal debts as well as club debts going out via the same vehicle.

When an owner such as Short is ploughing hundreds of millions in, nobody questions those things (although ask GOM if he was happy with SAFC's accounting setup from a transparency p.o.v in previous years, I recall him being frustrated by Short on that). When an owner's company is borrowing tens of millions of pounds from a club in our situation, and then goes on record saying he won't be putting any of that back in the upcoming year (2:01:57 on the podcast), then I just get worried.

Is it ok to be worried by that arrangement?
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See, I kinda see where you are with this, but the Close Brothers money, and the money to Short is effectively the same thing.

The money paid to Short isn’t the clubs money, it’s Shorts.

The £32 million costs aren’t Shorts.

I think in reality we will need to see the year end books won’t we. But money is being counted twice (to Short, and Close brothers).
 
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Nads said:
See, I kinda see where you are with this, but the Close Brothers money, and the money to Short is effectively the same thing.

The money paid to Short isn’t the clubs money, it’s Shorts.

The £32 million costs aren’t Shorts.

I think in reality we will need to see the year end books won’t we. But money is being counted twice (to Short, and Close brothers).
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No not counting it twice.

If they took out a 12m loan and used 6.6m to pay off Short, they then (theoretically, keeping it simple) sent back the remaining £5.4m along with £6.6m from the club's parachute payments as repayment.

That would mean the club is now owed £6.6m by Madrox for the portion of had to cover, make sense?
 
Kittenmittons said:
Alvarez to Inter was covered in the 16-17 accounts. The final payment due on Alvarez's loss of earnings is delayed because the player wants to double it.

Ndong was £8.5m. As CM said, they ended up spending just £32m vs a £20m revenue when it had been projected at £45m+. £9m was parachute payments, and £3m... well, it could be Donald, it could be Sartori, it could be Maja... this year they claimed they actually received more money than expected from Khazri (St Etienne got into Europe) and the PL (Liverpool CL win).

The atmosphere is toxic because of him. Nobody sent him death threats ffs :D All I'm saying is he needs to pay his debt to the club and if we lose out on takeovers from the likes of MSD, it's fair to question whether that huge debt of £20m+, almost certainly closer to £30m (assuming Angela hasn't made another 'accounting error'!) now, is a sticking point.
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Good god, you're boring and poisonous.
 
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Fair enough. I've been nice to everyone and explained what others have asked. I am concerned for the club, it is strange how any kind of rational, fact based discussion is shot down as being somehow verboeten. I only want to see us get out of League One and to make sure that the club is in the best possible financial position. If that's not allowed, I don't know what to say.

I will genuinely stop posilting here for now, let's see how the next few weeks and months go.
 
Kittenmittons said:
No not counting it twice.

If they took out a 12m loan and used 6.6m to pay off Short, they then (theoretically, keeping it simple) sent back the remaining £5.4m along with £6.6m from the club's parachute payments as repayment.

That would mean the club is now owed £6.6m by Madrox for the portion of had to cover, make sense?
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What number are you speculating Short received, regardless of where from, for the club?
 
Nads said:
What number are you speculating Short received, regardless of where from, for the club?
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£12.6m total from Donald directly (much of which has now been paid by the club) and £25m of his debt to SBC that has now been paid by the club, most of which is owed back in by Madrox.



That's the genuine last one. I cant answer any more or the thick lads get angry that nobody is posting about board meetings and speculating what sandwiches they're eating.
 
Nads said:
So what’s the make up of the £32 million costs?

The playing staff wage bill was reduced to £11 million half way through the season, so we have to add partially to that for Maja, N’Dong and Djiliboji.

We paid off Rodwell on top, then there’s club staff, stadium costs, academy costs, £3 million on players in summer and £4million or so on Grigg in January.

We are already absolutely safe to say costs were way over the £20million quoted.

There was a £10 million bomb called N’Dong. Then another £9 million one called Alvarez.

There’s policing costs and matchday stewarding, there’s concession tickets and hospitality, there’s travel costs for the multiple club squads to away games, accommodation where required.

Agent fees, consultancy fees.

The figures are miles of speculatively. And none of us have seen or had access to them factually.

What’s clear as day is that nobody has taken £15 million out of the club, as has been suggested.

That absolutely is slanderous, and libellous.
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How long is KM going to be allowed to use this board to publicise his anti SD rhetoric?
 
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Kittenmittons said:
£12.6m total from Donald directly (much of which has now been paid by the club) and £25m of his debt to SBC that has now been paid by the club, most of which is owed back in by Madrox.



That's the genuine last one. I cant answer any more or the thick lads get angry that nobody is posting about board meetings and speculating what sandwiches they're eating.
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Don’t worry about them, I’m speaking to you mate.

So we are basing it on a £37.6 million sale price.

What were the clubs TOTAL costs ( we will exclude transfers in and out for simplicity as we agree they will have been almost neutral), so wages, academy, staff, policing, travel and accommodation, website etc.

Clubs total cost? This number is vital in all this.

(For simplicity we will just say, to keep it easy, the parachute payment neutralises Ellis, based on your numbers)
 
Nads said:
Don’t worry about them, I’m speaking to you mate.

So we are basing it on a £37.6 million sale price.

What were the clubs TOTAL costs ( we will exclude transfers in and out for simplicity as we agree they will have been almost neutral), so wages, academy, staff, policing, travel and accommodation, website etc.

Clubs total cost? This number is vital in all this.

(For simplicity we will just say, to keep it easy, the parachute payment neutralises Ellis, based on your numbers)
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I only know what Methven said, which is £32m. We're going over the same ground, some of the weirdos here aren't going to like it. It has numbers in it and everything...
 
Kittenmittons said:
I only know what Methven said, which is £32m. We're going over the same ground, some of the weirdos here aren't going to like it. It has numbers in it and everything...
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Ok cool. So £32 million of costs.

So, we’ve got £32 million costs, and £37.6million to Ellis, right? So £69 million effectively going out of the club.

We had £35 million parachute.
And reportedly around £22 million other revenue.

That’s £57 million.

So, we were about £3million under break even.

So, the income was £12 million UNDER all outgoings, including purchase price.

Who paid that? Oh, the loan from Chase, which tallys almost exactly.

But that’s now been paid off hasn’t it?

Are we there yet? How’s it been paid if there was no more income? Stu’s £5 million + Sartori’s £3million leave us £3-4 million Short.

Exactly as Charlie reported, funnily enough.
 
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Kittenmittons said:
Fair enough. I've been nice to everyone and explained what others have asked. I am concerned for the club, it is strange how any kind of rational, fact based discussion is shot down as being somehow verboeten. I only want to see us get out of League One and to make sure that the club is in the best possible financial position. If that's not allowed, I don't know what to say.

I will genuinely stop posilting here for now, let's see how the next few weeks and months go.
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You said that ages ago and you have still waffled on and on.
 
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Nads said:
Ok cool. So £32 million of costs.

So, we’ve got £32 million costs, and £37.6million to Ellis, right? So £69 million effectively going out of the club.

We had £35 million parachute.
And reportedly around £22 million other revenue.

That’s £57 million.

So, we were about £3million under break even.

So, the income was £12 million UNDER all outgoings, including purchase price.

Who paid that? Oh, the loan from Chase, which tallys almost exactly.

But that’s now been paid off hasn’t it?

Are we there yet? How’s it been paid if there was no more income? Stu’s £5 million + Sartori’s £3million leave us £3-4 million Short.

Exactly as Charlie reported, funnily enough.
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Ah I now understand what you're getting at.

37.6m to ES
32m operating costs


34m parachute payments
9.6m from 2017-18 parachute payments (see Madrox accounts on companies house)
22m revenue

Make more sense now?
 
I'll go now before one of these genuine mouth breathers has a fit. I should just say though, that all I want is the best for the club. I don't have a vendetta against CM or SD (hi Charlie btw). I think they aren't the worst owners in the world. If they make good on this and pay back their debts, I will wish them as much profit as possible from this endeavour. For us, it's more than just a business though.

Tatty bye.
 
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