On a personal level I want to be able to travel when and where I want and I would like to retire to Spain. On a country level, I want us to have zero tariffs with the E.U. but also be free to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world. It won’t happen - it’s called ‘having your cake and eating it’, but that’s what I would like.
please log in to view this image Pros and Cons of leaving on WTO Pros 1. Save £39 billion 2. Saves Democracy 3. Full Control of Borders 4. Full Control of laws 5. Free to make trade deals Cons 1. Phone bill might go up on holiday 2. Can't take dog on holiday 3. No lettuce in winter It's a hard choice
I apologise for my lateness on this thread and because of this, there is just too much to read to catch up on everything, so if I repeat what others have said, just ignore me 1) I really get fed up when people say compromises need to be made. Why should there be compromises? In any election or vote on any motion in the House of Commons, the winners win and the losers lose. You never see the losers seek compromises from the winners or see the winners give compromises to the losers. So why this time are the losing side demanding compromises? Its just not right. 2) People who wanted to remain call those who wanted leave names such as racists. The same people who want a 2nd referendum want these so called "racists", to vote again. That makes sense doesn't it. 3) During the referendum, both leave and remain sides lied. Not just leave. So the argument about the legality behind the referendum doesn't wash with me. All the scaremongering from the remain side was at times pathetic. These so called experts coming out saying if leave win the referendum it would be all doom and will have another recession and the pound will drop so much. All wrong. At the same time the talk from the leave side saying how easy it was going to be was obviously very far fetched. And I don't see the argument behind the advert on the said of the bus. I just read it different to a lot of people. The slogan on the bus that says "We send the EU £350 million a week. Lets fund our NHS instead", doesnt actually say we will give the whole £350 million to the NHS. It to me suggests that instead of giving £350 million to the EU, we can use some of that money to fund the NHS among other things like education and security etc. There is obviously only so much room on the bus to state everything big enough for people to read. People just took the slogan as the full £350 million will go straight to the NHS which obviously it wouldn't. As for both sides lying, all political parties lie in their manifestos and promise the world to get votes when they damn well know they cant keep those promises. 4) Those politicians calling for a 2nd referendum, why is it that remain just needs to win enough votes once for that decision to stick but leave has to win enough votes twice and even then that might not be good enough? That's not fair nor is it democracy. 5) Parliament voted to let the people decide on a referendum. The government said numerous time during all tv debates and interviews before the referendum that leaving the EU means leaving the customs union and single market. The government sent a leaflet to every house about the referendum stating leaving the EU would mean leaving the customs union and single market and that they would implement what the majority of the people decide. On that leaflet is said it was a once in a generation decision. Not twice or however many times. Just once. Remember, this leaflet was very anti Brexit as was designed by the government who were behind the remain campaign. And this leaflet cost over £9 million of tax payers money too. Leave still won despite the scaremongering. The people decided on a majority to leave the EU. 6) After the referendum result, parliament vote to start article 50. Now these same politicians are now demanding to revoke article 50. These politicians are in this for themselves and not their constituents who voted them in. I hope these politicians who want to remain and their constituents majority voted to leave make their feeling known to their MP and vote them out next time in the next election. 7) The EU has said the only deal possible is the the deal that the PM has negotiated otherwise its no deal. Why are politicians delaying it with other alternatives when the EU wouldn't agree to it anyway. If the deal that May and the EU made is not good enough to parliament or the people then no deal it is. Remember that May said over 100 times in parliament that no deal is better than a bad deal. Personally I think May's deal is a bad deal. Its not really Brexit in my eyes. But May seem to have forgotten her very own threats. 8) How stupid is it that parliament have voted not to leave on a no deal which takes away any advantage that we had over the EU during negotiations? 9) Parliament has wasted so much time with arguing among themselves. The way they have handled all of this has been so bad that I actually don't trust our MP's to run a bath let alone run our country after we leave the EU. They have proved to be incompetent. 10) The SNP will be doing another referendum in Scotland for independence regardless if we remain or actually leave. So let them do them. They will do anything to keep the UK in the EU. So if they get their wish, they will still end up doing their best to leave the UK anyway. Its so obvious. So their votes in my opinion shouldn't count in Brexit votes in parliament as they will be voting for things will end up not concerning them. I wonder how May's deal or no deal will do in parliament without all the negativity from a party that doesn't even want to be there anyway. Anyway, that's my views
I have to say I think this is a brilliant clip from the German parliament about Brexit. I think every UK politician should hear this and feel ashamed that they don't view the situation like this guy. Also its interesting to see the German leader not happy with what is being said and say its not in their best interest. Another reason why we should leave the EU asap.
Very quick thoughts on some of your points: 1) The issue isn't the compromise. It's that leave could mean one of about 20 things, and people are trying to claim it 'really' meant no deal, which is not the case at all. 17.4m did not vote for no deal no matter how much Farage tells you so. 3) Leave were not found guilty for lying. They were found guilty for various other reasons, overspending, illegal (massively illegal by the way) use of data, etc. So I understand your point but it's not really applicable. 6) The electorate are now pro-remain. All the stats say so. 8) Because no matter what others say in here, no deal would completely and utterly **** us for generations. I could support a certain type of Brexit but it's plainly obvious that no deal would be a ****show, no matter how much you believe otherwise. All the facts demonstrate so. And to call it project fear in reality is just lazily ignoring the signs. But to be fair this has all been done to death in here and if there's one thing that could make this thread any more volatile it's the introduction of a Rovers fan .
your ending made me chuckle out loud In reply 1) I take the calls for a compromise is that the default end is no deal. The PM has said countless times that no deal is better than a bad deal. Pretty much every politician remainer and leaver thinks the PM's deal is a bad deal. The no deal threat is really aimed towards to the EU to make the compromises. But our politicians are too stupid to see this and demanded and voted that no deal is not an option, which takes away our advantage and any chance of the EU to make the deal better for us as they know that no deal will harm them a lot. Now the EU has the power to punish us as they know they can offer what they want because we wont go out on a no deal. Our politicians are calling for compromises towards the PM's deal so that parliament can get a majority. But my complaint is that parliament shouldn't have a say now anyway. They voted for the people to decide. 17.4 million were the majority and that was to leave. Its down to the PM to make a deal or leave on no deal. Its not down to parliament in my eyes to change details what people voted on like demanding we remain in a customs union or the single market when 17.4 million voted to leave these. Not one person can say with any credibility that they voted without knowing leave meant leaving the customs union and single market. However parliament was the PM's deal to make compromises to add the customs union in so they can get a majority in parliament but again they in my eyes should need this as they gave the decision over to the people. 3) I didn't mean what they were found officially guilty for. I meant what people are saying. Like the leave bus saying £350 million to the NHS saying that was a lie etc. As for over spending, both sides over spent in my eyes. But the leaflet that the government sent was not included in the expenses for each party. However to me it should have done. The leaflet was very anti Brexit and pro remain. The government took advantage of that leaflet knowing it wouldn't be counted towards the budgets for each party. Now add that £9 million on top of the remain parties and see if that goes way over. 8) For me no deal will harm the UK. That's why the threat of leaving on a no deal would have given us a better deal with the EU. If only politicians would have understood this instead of playing party politics and trying to make self gains instead of thinking about the UK. I give you an example. Pretty much the PM's deal matches Labours wishes but Labour continuously rejects the deal because they want it to fail as they see it as a chance for themselves to get into power somehow. Party politics will kill these parties in any forthcoming elections. I see UKIP is back and looking stronger than ever. Its just a matter of time that the actions of our politicians will cause riots again between hardcore leavers. Just to point out when I say no deal will harm the UK, I mean that in the immediate short term. Maybe a few years while the UK deal with trade deals. However, I truly thought that short term pain for long term gain and I am a string believer of that. But as our politicians have proved to be untrustworthy and corrupt, in it for themselves, I don't trust our MP's to make it short term pain for long term gain. More like long term pain just so they can say "I told you so". Rob
and you are certainly not the best to be saying you have a clue that you know what you are talking about! Every answer you give for anybody's post is twisted around to make it lookas though you are the matriarch or "right"
RR many years ago like a decade or 2 before EU WE ALWAYS HAD TOMAO'S AND LETTUCE AT CHRISTMAS .... In this modern age there is unlikey to be any foodstuff you cant get! have said loads of times before different threads " check out the beans you have in the supermarket" produce of "Uganda or close by country" are quite often on the supermarket shelf in less than 36 hours after being harvested! lettuce travelling up from Spain are usually 3 -4 days old before getting here! SO DONT WORRY ABOUT FOOD
That would be because he’s copied and pasted it from somewhere else. Do you really believe he can create a comment without some sort of spelling mistake?
Before anyone starts throwing accusations; - did I vote Remain? YES - do I want an extension? NO. Further uncertainty is the last thing we need. Kicking the can further down the road.....
I don’t think it’s UKIP that these parties need to worry about. Once this independent group get a manifesto and a leader (my monies on the other miliband) then I can see them forming a strong party. I believe that we could hopefully see the Labour and Conservative parties as we know it falling to pieces, as the country has lost all respect. I’m very much the same as bcfcredandwhite wants. I’m all for freedom of movement as it does work both ways. To me if I choose to retire in Spain, France or anywhere then I will still have that choice not the way it could be only if I’ve got x income and can pay medical bills etc. I’m against illegal immigration but that’s illegal so it will never change. Most of these terrible immigrants that people complain about work their socks off doing the jobs us Brits turn our noses up to. I don’t want an extension I just want it sorted.
I said earlier in a comment that its only a matter of time before riots start. If it was the other way around that remain won the referendum that would have been the end of it. Do you really think that the government would still be debating the losing side (leave) to have a 2nd referendum. No chance. I also don't believe for a second that those brexiteers would be demanding compromises or vocal about losing the referendum. But a hell of a lot of remainers have done everything in their power to be vocal about demanding a 2nd referendum and making claims that it was unfair blah blah blah. So if Brexit don't happen, not only is it an end to democracy in the UK and a lot of voters wont every vote again but they will be showing how angry they are with riots. Its obvious. Parliament have turn their backs on the majority. Parliament had the chance to get a good deal but they instead have played delayed tactics and party politics to run the clock down and now Brexit probably won't happen.
UKIP will come back stronger than ever and will make the divide worse I think. As for the TIG's, I too can see them being popular. Voters who are fed up with Labour and the Tories will probably go to them or UKIP. Remainers go for the TIG's and leavers go for UKIP. However the TIG's won't get my vote. They were elected on manifestos and have turned their backs on those manifestos. The TIG's to me are worse than Labour and Tories. I doubt I will vote again to be honest. May has been a terrible PM and Corbyn is a terrible leader of the opposition. For me, a Brexiteer should have been the PM and not May. British politics is more of a comedy joke than leaders of the UK.
But CJS, the reason is that if Remain has won, nobody would have needed to do anything. Businesses and people knew where they stood so it would be business as usual. Brexit won and suddenly its ‘5hit nobody saw that coming - what now?’ The options in the referendum were binary; in or out. There was no ‘in’, ‘out with no deal’ or ‘out with a deal’. Tw@s though they undoubtedly are, I think the politicians are squabbling over deal or no deal rather than trying to kill Brexit completely. Maybe if they are still at stalemate next week perhaps a referendum without Remain but with the hard or soft Brexits as the choice may be offered? In the meantime businesses relocate to more stable environments and the pound continues to fall........
I can’t see UKIP having any major support, they have no policies other than leave the EU. Both main parties have been as bad as one another , Torries tryin to stop themselves breaking apart , and Labour trying to make political gain from the disarray and hoping to force an election where they hope to gain power. The MP’s that annoy me the most though are the ones that are trying to stop Brexit , saying we the public didn’t mean out , like we are some kind of idiots , it’s not their role to undermine democracy, just ensure it is carried out. So to Yvette Cooper , or whatever her name is, who is trying to stop a no deal Brexit from happening, I ask on who’s authority is she doing this , she stood on a manifesto to accept Brexit, I respectfully ask she does as she was instructed by 17.5m voters, not treat them as idiots.
Saw this in another article and there was a glorious irony to it. "But safeguards introduced to comply with EU regulations mean the devices failed."
Also, May is now reaching out to Corbyn for assistance, but let's not be fooled. We all know a general election is coming up. And if she can shift any of the blame onto Labour she absolutely will. It's all tactics.
