Off Topic So, what now?

[BCFCRob]

Of course, a deal would be better. But we're agreeing that default position is no deal so we must plan for that. I mean, plenty of people on here want a no deal right?

I have no idea how old you are AshtonRed but a hard border in Ireland is not possible politically. And physically there's no chance we could implement it by the end of March, or even within a year.

 

[Red Robin]

This is very simple

We were asked to vote in or out.

Out won,there was no question regards a deal.

just in or out.

So simply put, these cretins in Government,who are not following the wishes of the majority and want a deal,costing some 39 billion and god knows what other ties with the Eu are not following the will of the people.

A no deal taking complete control off our destiny, without the corrupt unelected mob in Brussels telling us what to do.

Watch them come crawling when we leave.

Germany and us are the two major contributors funding their elite lifestyles and Germany will not wish to be the sole major funder,within two years the EU will be no more.

 

[BCFCRob]

I completely respect your opinions, if you want to leave that's absolutely fine. But I want to clarify that all of you supporting no deal actually understand what you're supporting.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but looking back through the thread, these posters are either in support of or have advocated a no deal Brexit:
Ashton Red
Cliftonville
Red Robin
JGF
Wiz

So to be clear. You are all absolutely clear that a no deal at the end of March means the following:
- No hard border as it is both physically impossible to build in that time, and politically impossible to implement without violence
- No control over products coming in and out of our country due to there being no checks at the border. No control over implementing tariffs correctly, checking that the products entering our country are even legal.
- No control over immigration as people will still be able to freely enter and leave the UK via the Irish border from the EU.

Unless any of you have any suggestions on how to fix the above?

 

[johngalleyfan2]

So what you were basically saying, when asked what happens next is “You was going to watch QT”

no, you get a very diverse cross section of people on there, especially in the audience. I think the initial "when to clap" is orchestrated [ listen via radio ].
You can also see, well hear the tone in the voice of example... "the lady in the red top, your question" now some are quite good ones, and get a clap that is starts off the same moment but continues on for a few seconds, or absolute cr** that start and stop and last maybe a second. there 4 seconds of fame!
Last night, at one point the labour lady saying why JC wont come to the table tied herself up in knots … and the "panel" and the audience lambasted her as she tried to dig her way out …. mind you she did have one point that was valid, or someone did "that threatening their MP'S with deselection if they don't toe the line is wrong".
what does become apparent is that when hounded / heckled all party representatives do / are able to make more sense.
no one it seems, seems to be in doubt that it "could" be quite hard getting to the promised land … I liken it to some of the amazing walks I have done … you have to walk up an annoyingly tedious path, to get to top, at some 3 or 4,000+m, then in front of you is a panorama of great beauty … the promise, and from there on it is an easy path...……. we are currently in the foothills looking for that path!

 

[johngalleyfan2]

All I'm saying is that in a GE the parties make it clear what they are planning to do. In the referendum, leave did not do this, because it was not possible. Some were saying a hard Brexit, some were saying we would stay in the EU customs union, no one really knew. I was on the leave side and I didn't know. I'm not saying it's wrong to vote leave, I'm genuinely not saying this from my own Brexit opinion. But oneforthebristolcity said that it was the same decision as in a General Election and I'm just pointing out how it is quite a bit different.

In agreement with first part, but not the last bit ….."But oneforthebristolcity said that it was the same decision as in a General Election and I'm just pointing out how it is quite a bit different" .. the fundamental is the same, as 1for says , you vote and it is accepted, you don't get the opposition voters / MP's [ except JC on the last one ] turning round and saying sorry we are not going to sit here for 4 years as opposition we want to be the government …. and want another GE, everyone just goes about their business and works to the common good...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but looking back through the thread, these posters are either in support of or have advocated a no deal Brexit:
Ashton Red
Cliftonville
Red Robin
JGF

Wiz

I for one absolutely DO NOT [ sorry ROD, had to emphasise that bit] want a no deal. A deal in some form will get to the table, although I fear, as was said last night.. a certain individual will bully his members into saying no to anything
One of the interventions, that got raucous applause and cheers in the house was " addressed to JC who was making his no confidence speech" [ he was by the way, getting so much flak he gave way very few times ]
if the honorary gentleman was to reply to a letter from TM to put down all that he wanted in the deal, she would put it in the agreement and bring it to the vote.... he would still vote against it!

 

[Cliftonville]

I completely respect your opinions, if you want to leave that's absolutely fine. But I want to clarify that all of you supporting no deal actually understand what you're supporting.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but looking back through the thread, these posters are either in support of or have advocated a no deal Brexit:
Ashton Red
Cliftonville
Red Robin
JGF
Wiz

So to be clear. You are all absolutely clear that a no deal at the end of March means the following:
- No hard border as it is both physically impossible to build in that time, and politically impossible to implement without violence
- No control over products coming in and out of our country due to there being no checks at the border. No control over implementing tariffs correctly, checking that the products entering our country are even legal.
- No control over immigration as people will still be able to freely enter and leave the UK via the Irish border from the EU.

Unless any of you have any suggestions on how to fix the above?

Why do you want this border and why do you want to divide the UK?

There are alternatives.

 

[BCFCRob]

Why do you want this border and why do you want to divide the UK?

There are alternatives.

I don't and I didn't say I did. I just said there will be no border. But I'm intrigued to hear what the alternative is - in a no deal Brexit scenario of course.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

But I'm intrigued to hear what the alternative is - in a no deal Brexit scenario of course.

BCFC Rob, just using your quote to highlight the phrase "in a no deal Brexit scenario"

there is no such thing as a no deal perspective, not my comment, came off the tele from a prominent legal eagle … ! wont go into why he said it or its complications,
but my thoughts on it follow some of his drift …. simply put a big chunk of any deal whether you say it is no deal or deal is legally binding and we signed it what we owe and our on going commitments. The rest of the deal! is based around the "red lines" of which both sides have them! … apparently!

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

I don't and I didn't say I did. I just said there will be no border. But I'm intrigued to hear what the alternative is - in a no deal Brexit scenario of course.

There are borders now, just not policed..Apparently there are certain borders in Switzerland, some policed and some not.....Somehow, something could be sorted out!!

 

[AshtonRed]

I completely respect your opinions, if you want to leave that's absolutely fine. But I want to clarify that all of you supporting no deal actually understand what you're supporting.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but looking back through the thread, these posters are either in support of or have advocated a no deal Brexit:
Ashton Red
Cliftonville
Red Robin
JGF
Wiz

So to be clear. You are all absolutely clear that a no deal at the end of March means the following:
- No hard border as it is both physically impossible to build in that time, and politically impossible to implement without violence
- No control over products coming in and out of our country due to there being no checks at the border. No control over implementing tariffs correctly, checking that the products entering our country are even legal.
- No control over immigration as people will still be able to freely enter and leave the UK via the Irish border from the EU.

Unless any of you have any suggestions on how to fix the above?

I don’t advocate a no deal Brexit. and yes I’m old enough to remember what a hard border means, I am simply stating fact Rob , at the end of March if nothing is agreed or nothing done , ie a change of law , we will leave without a deal. U may not like it but I’m afraid it’s true. .

How the border would be managed is another question altogether

 

[Red Robin]

Any body think the Euro deal is bad
You ain’t seen nothing yet
Any of you like this,if you do you must be completely mad and need too give your head a wobble.

This is what happens when we stay in Europe
WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK MAY’s DEAL WAS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..
“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!

 

[oneforthebristolcity]

Any body this the Euro deal is bad
You ain’t seen nothing yet
Any of you like this,if you do you must be completely mad and need too give your head a wobble.

This is what happens when we stay in Europe
WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK MAY’s DEAL WAS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..
“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!

What did you cut and paste that from RR?

 

[raver]

From the tea lady's cat 12 months ago... "Theresa does not know what she is doing or how to lead....she will never make a decision on direction or close off any avenue as she wants to leave everything open. No one knows whether what they are working on will happen. At least under Cameron and Osborne we knew where we were all headed and what was expected and the point on the horizon we were headed...everyone knew what they had to do

From the tea lady's cat at Christmas .... "Theresa will never get her deal through in the next month....whatever happens we are leaving"

sad but true

 

[wizered]

This is really interesting if you have the patience to read it, the conclusion is suprising.
Can Parliament block a ‘no deal’ Brexit?
https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2017/10/16/can-parliament-block-a-no-deal-brexit/

 

[johngalleyfan2]

There are borders now, just not policed..Apparently there are certain borders in Switzerland, some policed and some not.....Somehow, something could be sorted out!!

there are active borders around Switzerland. I have been through a lot of them, the tendency is one or 2 Swiss man their side, Italy doesn't mostly nor does the other 3 countries?
Luxemborg have manned border posts, a fairly large one on Belgian border [E411 LUX airport route] I have been stopped going back to Belgium twice, and searched by LUXnot sure if one on east border with Germany 2X.

 

[johngalleyfan2]

What did you cut and paste that from RR? laugh

you may mock!

 

[BCFCRob]

There are borders now, just not policed..Apparently there are certain borders in Switzerland, some policed and some not.....Somehow, something could be sorted out!!

That's because Switzerland accepts freedom of movement and has regulatory alignment. We will have neither, so it wouldn't work for us.

I don’t advocate a no deal Brexit. and yes I’m old enough to remember what a hard border means, I am simply stating fact Rob , at the end of March if nothing is agreed or nothing done , ie a change of law , we will leave without a deal. U may not like it but I’m afraid it’s true. .

How the border would be managed is another question altogether

Well that's the point mate. It's not a different question altogether. We've got 4 or 5 of yourselves backing a no deal Brexit but not one of you is willing to solve the problem which makes it impossible. Either there has to be a border, or you allow as many people as you like to wonder into the country illegally (FAR more than today). So which is it?

You guys know I'm remain but I'm genuinely not arguing the case for that. I'm just interested to see how you would solve the above problem. Because no deal is impossible unless you accept one of the above and I'm not sure you guys actually realise it.

Also gents isn't this a thread to discuss what we think will happen? Just pointing that out as RR has begun his anti-EU piece (and I'm willing to bet he understood less than 10% of that article he quoted ).

 

[AshtonRed]

That's because Switzerland accepts freedom of movement and has regulatory alignment. We will have neither, so it wouldn't work for us.



Well that's the point mate. It's not a different question altogether. We've got 4 or 5 of yourselves backing a no deal Brexit but not one of you is willing to solve the problem which makes it impossible. Either there has to be a border, or you allow as many people as you like to wonder into the country illegally (FAR more than today). So which is it?

You guys know I'm remain but I'm genuinely not arguing the case for that. I'm just interested to see how you would solve the above problem. Because no deal is impossible unless you accept one of the above and I'm not sure you guys actually realise it.

Also gents isn't this a thread to discuss what we think will happen? Just pointing that out as RR has begun his anti-EU piece (and I'm willing to bet he understood less than 10% of that article he quoted ).

Rob you are completely missing my point .
As it stands no deal WILL happen 1st April , the issues you list will then have to be dealt with, but we will be outside the EU.

My point is better we stay in a transitional period discussing them whilst still inside the EU.

One way to achieve that is for the EU to soften, and allow the backstop to be removed from the framework, it can still be part of the agreement, but not of the framework that is legally binding.

My belief is it would get through parliament if this was done.

For clarity Rob I am NOT suggesting no deal, I’m suggesting changes to the framework of the deal that would facilitate a deal which is acceptable to both sides.

 

[AshtonRed]

That's because Switzerland accepts freedom of movement and has regulatory alignment. We will have neither, so it wouldn't work for us.



Well that's the point mate. It's not a different question altogether. We've got 4 or 5 of yourselves backing a no deal Brexit but not one of you is willing to solve the problem which makes it impossible. Either there has to be a border, or you allow as many people as you like to wonder into the country illegally (FAR more than today). So which is it?

You guys know I'm remain but I'm genuinely not arguing the case for that. I'm just interested to see how you would solve the above problem. Because no deal is impossible unless you accept one of the above and I'm not sure you guys actually realise it.

Also gents isn't this a thread to discuss what we think will happen? Just pointing that out as RR has begun his anti-EU piece (and I'm willing to bet he understood less than 10% of that article he quoted ).

I would be interested to know your solution Rob.

Accepting we’ve voted to leave so remaining isn’t an option , what’s your solution to the problem you’ve set out ? because it has to be solved , to do otherwise would set back democracy in this country,

 

[johngalleyfan2]

you allow as many people as you like to wonder into the country illegally (FAR more than today). So which is it?

every port [ and airport?] in the UK /those bits of the UK we have in Belgium France etc have 2 very distinct lanes as it stands and has done for 40 years it says non eu /eu/ uk citizens, the freedom of movement is applicable only to EU citizens.
As they would say in the "house" point of order" you were remain, we are not now, democracy has spoken, you were remain. In the future, heaven forbid there is another vote you can be whatever you want. Respect your vote to want to remain, makes some of your posts more understandable …...