Off Topic Politics Thread

of course you know I love you!

 

The problem is that the left is trying to tell the right how the right should be. You are saying the Conservatives should be based on what you want Conservatives to be like.......a mirror image of what you think Labour should be no doubt!!!

It is very telling that the left, the people who talk about bring a divided country together (and I mean in every country they talk about this), then uses language like purge, cleanse and many more such like terms. What the left seems to be saying is "conform or be ignored" rather than any semblance of being a broad church. It is quite simply "Think like us or you will be ignored."

And that is how they are treating every election result or every manifesto. If they agree with the result then it should proceed. If there is resistance in the house elected representatives are not doing their job and ignoring the people. If they disagree with the result then it should be stopped. If there is resistance in the house elected representatives doing a good job.

If the house won't abide by the left's will (I hesitate to use the term "progressive") then get the bovver boots on, call them all fascists or extremists and march to the capital.

When the "progressive" left are using terms like "cleanse and purge" continually you have to ask just who the fascists are!!! They quite obviously think that only their ideology should be allowed and everything else should be "cleansed" or "purged." And if they can;t do that by fair means then they'll take to the streets, smash stuff up, scream and spit in their "opponents" faces because election result don't go their way and politicians dare to implement what they said they would implement.

 

Not at all. I am working from the conclusion that it could go either way. Lots of differing variants. Could be good, could be bad. I don't expect the absolute armageddon forecast but I'm not expecting a utopia either.

That is the problem. I have a pretty open mind. I can see there are good things and bad things in the world. The economists though foresee any change as negative. And "progressives" always talk about change but in reality they fear it. Especially with economics. That is why "progressives" are trying to paint this change as a backward step which of course cannot then be progress. How do they know? Because people modelling on the status quo fear any change?

People putting "crash" in front of Brexit doesn't help either.

And no I don't think they're colluding because I think Brexit is a good thing. I think they are colluding because they are letting their own politics skew their neutrality on the subject. I equally don't believe Brexiteers that say we'll be charging along like a German train after Brexit. Both are letting their own politics skew the reality.

Most of the left always talk about looking at things long term but it seems to me when push comes to shove if they don;t agree they come out with short term arguments.

At the very least I think we should get out before the whole thing collapses.

 

You're labouring under a severely deluded misapprehension if you're labelling me (as I suspect you are) as "left". Not all people who see that crash-out Brexit will be a disaster are left-leaning.

I have regular arguments with religious people about evolution. They exhibit exactly your behaviour. They tell me that evolution cannot be true. And their reasons? It's all a scam because the scientists promoting it are allowing their atheism to skew their view on the facts. Identical arguments.

You believe in a crash out Brexit. You've convinced yourself and now no amount of evidence will change your mind as it's acquired the strength of a faith with you. Don't try to kid us that you're somehow in the middle on this. You're a true believer.

Vin

 

I was pointing the "left" part to the poster that uses language like "cleanse" and "purge."

And yet again you say "crash out." How do you know? I don;t know it won't be a crash out or not. How do you know? Because people who don't like Brexit couldn;t foresee anything but doom BEFORE they even got their calculators out?

The religion thing is just silly. Science has proven that wrong. Economic modelling might be regarded as a science but a forecast is not proven until it has actually happened.

You are trying to equate Brexiteer's not believeing something that has yet to be proven to Religious fools where things have been proven multiple times over.

The whole "people's vote" argument is based upon "know that people know the facts." This is ridiculous. They will not be "facts" until it has happened. Until then it is "prophecy." And no doubt when the recession comes (that Matt Frei on CH4 news has just accidentally let slip that the US is teetering on the edge of) then these economists and every other anti-Brexiter will proclaim the "facts" have now been proven. Another self fulfilling prophecy.

Can evolution be proven? Can brexit armageddon actually be proven before we Brexit? Yes to the first, Nope to the second.

We are being asked to believe that the conjecture on one side is actually fact and that the conjecture on the other side is fiction. They are both fiction until it has actually happened.

 

Will the Earth's temperature continue to increase if we keep emitting CO2 at the current rate?

Is that fiction? It's just a prediction made by experts about a thing that hasn't already happened.

Vin

 

I know house doesn't rhyme so I'll let you off the flat bit. Not lived in a flat since 2005 when first child was born. And it was private, before we got a council house. 13 years on and the council rent on this house is still only 66% of what that private flat cost per month

£300 for this council house per month in 2018, £450 for the private rented 2 bed flat per month in 2005, and that is not inflation adjusted. That is actually what we paid then and what we pay now. According to the BoE inflation calculator that £450 per month would be £638.78 in 2017. Although I know that flat is now £550 per month so it seems renting private has become cheaper in the past decade her in Lincoln despite it being the second fastest growing City in the UK so plenty of demand.

 

Iain Duncan Smith: - "The EU now has a decision to make. Not us, they do. If you want a deal you'd better damn well step up to the plate"

Deluded.

Vin

 

So research of what has been happening that concludes CO2 is having an effect is now the same as concluding Brexit will be terrible.......with no past information to conclude this?

We can take CO2/temperature figures from the past decades to pretty much conclude this is true.
How can we take past Brexit figures to conclude it will be bad when it hasn't happened yet? We can take past figures to conclude what might happen if we stay in. However we can't do the same for if we leave.

The same people could take past patterns to conclude there was no recession coming pre 2008.......but they still didn't see it.

I guess if I were a climate change denier I could say that the earth's temperature is rising. Proven and not arguing. Has it been proven that is down to CO2? Could it be something else we haven;t discovered yet? Could it just be natural and we are just exiting an ice age?

But I'm not a climate change denier, I am just sceptical about the motives of many people who push it when there is so much money involved. We need to change but I'm sceptical about big business that has vested interests pushing a lot of this stuff.

I religiously recycle, keep my heating low, Only have LEDs in this house and refuse to drive. My energy supplier is "SO" that resources all of its supply from "renewable." I'm doing my bit.

 

Realist. We could play this game all night.

 

Trump doesn't believe in global warming or brexit.

Shall we leave it there?

 

I thought Trump was a liar!!! How do you know he actually doesn't believe these things? I tend to believe he DOES believe in Brexit (I know you meant that) but I'm not so sure on the global warming one. I think he may be playing that one for his voterbase.

 

I was just trying to stop you two going at it........
<run>

 

oh I give up! I was hoping for a **** off SiS and what do I get? 2 paragraphs on Private vs Council renting! There's just no stopping you!

 

The process is the same in both cases. Nobody know what will happen in the future on CO2, as we haven't experienced it. So, scientists build models based on what has happened in the past when conditions have been changed, say if ice starts to melt in a given sutuation, how does that feed back into more temperature changes.

Economists look at situations where they can judge the effects of change, say imposing tariffs on vehicles. Then, using that information they judge what will happen when we crash out of the EU and such tariffs are imposed.

It's an identical method. You accept one and not the other because in one case your faith blinds you to the validity of the process.

Vin

 

Since when has the CDP been anything other than a Conservative party? If the UK Conservative party wants to get back to being the Conservative party it once was, it should get rid of its populist policies (Brexit). Heseltine would quite happily like to see Mogg outed from the party. And when has Heseltine been anything else than Conservative? So you cannot say what I have suggested about the Tories needing a branch and root reform is leftish at all.

 

The New York times, purveyor of fake news r.e. the UK*, put this tweet out. Read the comments, they are hilarious.

*One article banging on about how all the restaurants in London serve nothing but boiled mutton and porridge. One article banging on about austerity and showing its effects by posting a picture of a closed down fire station.........which was actually one closed down as the replacement had been built and one about Northern poor folk that was just laughable but can;t really remember the subject as it was so far from reality.

 

What past Brexit information have they got to say it will be armageddon?

They have the past info on climate change and are projecting a trend. They have the past info on being in the EU and are projecting a trend. We can disagree with their figures but at least they have something to go on. they don;t have anything to project a trend on Brexit. They are "guessing."

You are repeating the "when tariffs are imposed" when you nor they know what tariffs will (if any) be imposed, nor what the government will do to alter things. Do you, I or they know what tariffs and schedules the UK submitted to the WTO in July? Nope.

Yes they know what the EUs tariffs for things outside the EU are so they can take them BUT they do not know what any counter measures the government will take to reduce or nullify those tariff costs.

They are speculating on WTO "maximums" and EU actuals. They have no idea what counter measures will be deployed. Pure speculation presented as "facts."

 

You want parties to be broad church? or built in your image and purged/cleansed of anyone with differing opinions? Should Corbyn be kicked out for being a eurosceptic? Or the moderate remainers be kicked out for being Blairites?

The German CDU is not conservative at all. The UK conservatives haven't been for a very very long time. The fact there are a few conservatives actually left in there may be a surprise to many but as a Tory MP Gillian Keegan stated live on BBC2 the other day (Politics live) "There is no such thing as right wing mainstream politics in this country anymore." No-one else on the panel even questioned it and she meant it as a positive. How can someone in the Tory party say that without any questions being asked. It is true but makes a mockery of things.

We need more true conservatives like Priti Patel, Andrea Jenkyns, Kwasi Kwarteng (despite him backing May's deal) and less of the Heidi Allens/Anna Soubrys that joined the Tory party instead of Labour/LibDems because blue is their favourite colour.