Off Topic Politics Thread

Several aspects of this sorry mess leave me perplexed. "The people have spoken" is one mantra. Well they did in June 2016, so are we saying voting decisions should be preserved in aspic forever? If so, can I ask for the 1945 General Election vote to be the one selected? It's total nonsense.

"Delivering the Brexit people want" is a favourite. I know a few Leavers. They range from hard line Tories to members of Momentum. They have bugger all in common if I ask them what they want from Brexit.

"The economic forecasts are all wrong." OK, I'm the first to accept the old adage that if you line up all the economists in the world they'll never reach a conclusion, but hang on. Surely the first question to be asked in any critical analysis is "Who is saying this?" Obviously a group demanding "The People's Vote" in the hope of staying in are going to present a bleak picture of Brexit. However, there are too many voices from across the piste to dismiss these concerns so readily. It appears to me that the Brexiteers are so anxious not to see their prize snatched from them that they refuse to be deflected by tiny details like economic armegeddon. They've got to the top of the slide, and even though they've been warned that they could lose limbs if they descend they are still saying "It'll be fine, chaps."

And don't even start me on "taking back control". I was a fervent Remainer, but like others I have accepted that the vote went against me. I have waited in vain for any one from the Leave campaign to tell me what the advantages will be of leaving the EU. I can only seem to read vacuous nonsense - "it will release our entrepreneurs from their shackles" is a good example. I have an old friend who built a highly innovative business that has global sales, so I asked him about his shackles. He reported none.

I'm too old to worry about what might happen. Frankly I am almost past caring. But let me end with one conversation with an Italian couple this summer. They told me that the party in Italy that wants Italy out of the EU are changing their minds watching the utter chaos in the UK.

UK - stock and laughing spring to mind!

 

Great post sir!

 

After last night´s debacle it is high time that Tory command took by control of the party taken over by the likes of Mogg, Redwood, Royston Smith. Local parties need to remove from their ranks Brexit supporting MPs, in particular those who have betrayed Mrs May in trying to dislodge her.

 

That was one of the key points of last night. She got 200 votes. 150 or so of those will have been people that are on her payroll. Ministers, PPSs, Aides etc. Virtually of them (some will have taken advantage of the secret ballot) will have voted for her which then makes the vote of "neutrals" more like 50 in favour, 117 against.

 

Will she be stepping down IF a GE is forced early this year? Say she comes back tomorrow with her "amended" wording of the unamendable agreement and the DUP aren't happy. If the opposition then do their vote of confidence and a GE is forced is she going to step down?

 

So is it not strange that in fact virtually of them have reached a conclusion? As if they are making sure their forecasts DO echo each other? Its like copying homework and changing a few things slightly to pretend you haven't copied. Virtually all these forecasts are identical as if they start from the same conclusion and then work their way back to change a few things to make them reach slightly different grades of doom.

 

Good luck with that one. Most (not all) constituency parties are t'other way round. Fending off member's desire to deselect remainers.

 

Imps, I have read many a post from you and hold you in the highest regard. But just take a moment to reflect on this, and ask yourself whether you would dismiss this argument as conspiracy theory ++ if it were presented by someone else.

You could be right, of course, and your smelling of a rat could have foundation. However, we haven't seen ANY economic modelling that disputes the idea that the economy will be gravely damaged by a hard Brexit. Given how academics love to disagree with each other I do find a conspiracy theory explanation hard to swallow.

 

I suspect he meant worst British government. It’s certainly the most useless since WWII

 

So Central Office needs to implement a root and branch reform of many local constituency parties to get rid of members supporting populist policies (Brexit being one), if the UK Conservative Party is to ever resemble a normal Conservative party (Germany´s CDP being the model Conservative party), one that does not yield to the mob or build political alliances with nutty parties.

 

A fundamental misunderstanding of UK politics there Ides. While elections are traditionally won in the centre ground, at least in times of peace and prosperity, party membership tends toward the more ideological and radical.

Hence the huge support for Jeremy Corbyn among Labour’s grass roots, and the huge support for Brexit, (and tendency to blame everything on foreigners) among the Tory grass roots.

 

Didn´t Kinnock cleanse Labour of Socialist Worker elements that had taken root in the then Labour party in the 70s and early 80s? And I do think Labour has appointed candidates approved by Transport. Jack Doomey (?) and Stephen Twigg being two that I can think of. So the UK Conservatives need to adopt Kinnock´s measures to rid itself of the poison that is rooted deep in its belly. And if it means suspending local parties that put forward the likes of Mogg, then so be it. It really needs to take this action.

 

So Labour are fine to welcome back all the loonies and open membership up to whoever wants to add their backing to Momentum...........yet the Tories need to make sure that they get rid of all Conservative minds and promote a mindset of the Blairite/Democrat? Considering what is happening to that type of politician in the world then that can only be your satirical sense of humour saying the Conservative should just disappear.......which I know you want anyway.

What makes me laugh is If Obama gets elected on a manifesto...........and then elected representatives (mostly Republican) stop him being able to do it then it is terrible...........Yet if Trump gets elected on a manifesto..........and the same elected representatives (mostly Republican) stop him being able to do it then they are doing the right thing.

And Macron gets elected on a manifesto by the people, then he has to u-turn because people protest.

And here we are in the same position. A government elected on a manifesto is not fulfilling that manifesto yet those that want that manifesto fulfilled are called extremists!!!

At the moment there is most definitely a lot of talk about democracy only meaning what one side of the political spectrum deem the "correct path."

And yes by the above I mean Macron should've just held firm. They voted him in. They chose not to pick the other option so they should suck it up........although of course I am very happy that Macron is being made a fool of.

 

The Brexiteer supporters in the Conservative party are not Conservatives. We need a true Conservative party based on the CDP in Germany. Look at the policies Mogg et al advocate There is no connection between what they are promoting and what a true Conservative party promotes and values (Re-Merkel and the CDP)

 

That might indeed be the explanation. An alternative explanation is that they have all started from the same starting point (Crash Brexit, no deal) and drawn similar conclusions of doom because that's what No Deal Brexit will actually lead to.

Is it possible that you are starting from the conclusion that Crash Brexit is a good thing and working back to the idea that thus the economists must be colluding?

Vin

 

My old mate is Imps man
he lives in a council flat
he's got 3000 children
and access to the internet ....

 

Add to that the basic economics of it aren't that difficult. Bigger is more efficient. Less but bigger partners even more so. Economy of scale and all that.

More efficient means more goods being made, transported and sold. Bigger economy.

Not really surprising they are coming to similar conclusions

 

There are no neutrals in this ridiculous saga. I understand the point you make, I really hope some common sense, not a virtue I know many politicians seem to show, kicks in soon.

 

he's talked a load of bollocks
to everyone he's met
he wears gor blimey trousers
pulled down on the internet