Sadly mate....the politicians were not prepared for the way the vote went. The truth is no matter what kind of deal they get (if at all) the tory party is going to be slaughtered which ever way this goes.......Labour will say they would have got a better deal. The liberals will say they didn't agree on the referendum. This is a major decision that the people have made. The turmoil that has come was or should have been expected. You are always going to get politicians arguing as to which is the best way to go. The papers are all doom and gloom...simply because that sells newspapers. In time it will sort itself out and we as a nation as always will by then have something else to moan about...........
Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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Sadly mate....the politicians were not prepared for the way the vote went. The truth is no matter what kind of deal they get (if at all) the tory party is going to be slaughtered which ever way this goes.......Labour will say they would have got a better deal. The liberals will say they didn't agree on the referendum. This is a major decision that the people have made. The turmoil that has come was or should have been expected. You are always going to get politicians arguing as to which is the best way to go. The papers are all doom and gloom...simply because that sells newspapers. In time it will sort itself out and we as a nation as always will by then have something else to moan about...........
So you're saying people don't want this but we should just go along with what the politicians are doing?
Seem to have changed your tune?
No I haven't changed my tune at all nor am I saying we should just go along with what politicians are doing. Not sure why you would think that? As I have previously said the people voted out. Now the party in power has to sort it out. The only thing I'm against was the suggestion that we should have left all of this to the politicians to make the in or out decision. Now they have to do what they were voted in for..............to look after this countries best interest..........
Despite people voting against their implementation and hammering them in the polls is what you said. So you're saying we should let them get on with it despite people voting against it.
The way the Cameron did this simply means we will never get to actually have a vote on Brexit and this has all been left to the politicians to sort out but sort it out in a way that they didn't want to so nobody wins.
Exactly. Re this and Beddy's statement -
"Sometimes though even politicians need to be guided by how the majority feel about things"
The problem is the this referendum told us about what we the people feel about things, but we all voted for different things about stuff we associated with Brexit or Remain whilst noone actually knew what either outcome would really mean. Hence if you look at either camp they are both a complex mix of people who actually don't agree with each other on many relevant issues.
I was personally horrified about some of the public figures I ended up in bed with on voting preference and yet found the opposition even less acceptable. Essentially the question lumped the baby in with the bathwater and insisted you either keep or lose both.
Our First Past The Post electoral system is flawed, certainly. For instance, how many times have you heard people say "I'd have voted Green/Liberal/Natural Law Party but it would have been a wasted vote"? There may be a better way of electing our leaders. But unlike a lot of voters, I actually trust politicians, who we elect, a lot more than I trust Bankers, Newspaper owners, Corporate CEOs etc, who we don't have any control over. They are the people who influence all our lives, and the only constraints on their behaviour are provided by the Law; Laws enacted by elected politicians.
Proportional Representation has it's problems too btw. Has Germany actually formed a govt yet? Has Italy?
The tories will be blamed whatever happens. Firstly for having the referendum at all........then the people going against what the tories recommended (to stay in) now for the way they are handling the Brexit itself. They will be slaughtered at the next general election no matter how things pan out mark my words.
Sadly I've known worse............and better. Cheer up though we are a very resilient nation and we will get out of the doldrums one day......... promise!!
Following the train of the conversation Beddytare, we were discussing the influence the media have on the people. Following this, I felt that the media would have a massive influence on the outcome. I am not saying everyone doesn’t think for themselves, but a very large number are easily swayed.
I thought you were part of that early conversation with Chilcs and the influence the media have... your point above contradicts that. Sorry if I misunderstood it to weren’t saying yesterday about the influence on the thoughts of the people.
Beddy, we could have had this discussion if Brexit went the other way. I made the point before Cameron's Last general election, not even just before the Brexit vote, let alone after.
I stated back then that I felt whichever way the mass media went, the country would go.
I restate, not everyone, but a very large number.
Fats........I can only speak for myself............Chilcs is also right about the papers having and effect on some peoples thinking............I was speaking from a personal point of view. Hence why I took what was in the papers with a pinch of Salt and pretty well always have done. Perhaps I haven't got my point over very well. for me the discussion followed a pattern when it was suggested that the people should not have been given the chance to vote for Brexit.
Exactly, I'm agreeing with you on this point. But it is demonstrating how flawed the referendum was. There was no way the conservatives could achieve what was promised in the referendum as people didn't know what they were voting for and voting for different things.
There was no way the people are actually going to be in favour of Brexit without having a say on it which is the situation holding a referendum without a plan to vote on has caused.
I understand Beddy, I looked back through and you said they didn’t affect you or your thoughts. They do affect a lot of people though.
The referendum was very simple in its format......do you want to stay in, or do you want out!! For me I made my decision on how I felt. I did consider how things were going to be achieved if the vote went for out. I also guessed how an out vote would cause turmoil. I also had a lot of discussions within my own family including my older grand children on the subject. I stress though that I didn't try to influence them in their decision making process. I did stress the importance of their vote though. To my knowledge all voted. The most questions they asked me though was about our joining in the beginning.........and why we joined. I have to say I don't remember any of them mentioning what the papers had to say just what the various tv pundits were saying. Also I gather some discussions that Parky and co were having on the TV.
The thing that puzzles me though is the remain camp seems to be against what Teresa May is trying to do which is to make this as soft a Brexit as is possible. Which surely is the best they can hope for?? .........Just remember though in a few years this major decision can be changed. Also a hard Brexit is doing nobody any favours whether EU or UK.
With soft Brexit you end up following most of the EU rules without any say in them whatsoever. It exacerbates the democratic problems while still making trade harder. It does feel a lot like, then what was the point? It's hard to praise whatever happens because there's no good outcome I can see so most of what you are going to get is criticism.
Also we can't rejoin in a few years with the same concessions we had prior to leaving. They're going to want to punish us to protect Europe as a whole.
I think that is exactly why they want out....Did we really have an influence on the undemocratic decision making process......our one vote made a difference.......?? The majority of the EU is poorer countries (Not all granted) There is a thought that they are only in the EU for what they can get out of it as a nation. They are bound to vote in things which are going to benefit them particularly........You cant blame them for that can you............As I say I don't know whether it is the right or wrong decision to come out. However we made that decision so lets just get on with it and work it out..........
And that, with all due respect, is why the issue should never have been put to a referendum.
The decision should have been made - by people armed with the full facts - on the basis of informed thought, not feelings.
Yes we did. That's a fact. Our democratically elected leaders have had a say on a lot of things including veto's we have now lost. which means we now have to follow a lot of their rules with an even more undemocratic process if we have a soft Brexit.
Also most things in the EU aren't decided by majority of countries. The EU provided a system to avoid that by allocating a number of slots for officials based on other criteria. What you're saying only happens when you have no system in place like with the Paris climate agreement for example. If there was no EU that's how things would be decided within Europe for Europe wide issues.