Off Topic Politics Thread

So somewhere between Geb(d) Bush and Arnie?

 

Very measured Beddy!! Ever the diplomat!!

 

I remember that Chilcs, but that was the 90s, I’d just learned to read! I thought there was some 70s stuff.

 

I can’t recall any specific headlines but there was a constant drip feed of biased stories and editorials, either supporting or against the government of the day. The Callaghan government was particularly targeted, and Margaret Thatcher championed in opposition, until she won in 1979. The Dirty Digger’s other papers had their share of duty tricks of course, culminating in the phone hacking scandal at the News of the World, which so embarrassed Murdoch that he shut the paper down, while at the same time promoting the former editor Rebekah Brooks, who was of course a close friend of David Cameron.

 

Up Your Junta Galtieri is one that springs to mind just before the Falklands conflict ignited.

Up Yours Delors is another

This wasn't confined to the 70's. Surely you remember the photo of Neil Kinnock beneath the headline If This Man Gets Elected, Would The Last Person to Leave Britain Please Turn Out The Lights, on the morning of the 1992 General Election?

The Sun and the Mail have gone a long way to frame the terms of the national political discourse for decades; and I would argue that their influence has been pernicious. Their steady drip drip drip of anti EU propaganda played a huge part in turning the electorate against that institution.

 

I remember the “turn the light out” one and some of the 80s ones (I think they did the light out one in the 80s too) but I was not questioning the validity of the affect, but enquiringly about the 70s ones particularly. This is simply because I was in single figures in the 70s and was interested what people remembered as it was the 70s specifically mentioned and Inwas too young. So far, nobody has delivered, just 80s and 90s...

All media does it And it was my number one objection when Cameron said, “Vote for me, I’ll give you an EU referendum.” Never should decisions like that go to the people for the very reason we are having this discussion.

 

Trouble is if you don't go to the people with decisions like that which ever political party makes those decision would be in for a hiding for ever and a day. Just as the argument is today it is a sure way for political parties to say ............"thats what the people wanted" All our major political parties wanted to stay in Europe, the people did not, especially in England. You cant blame any of the newspapers in my view, people believe what they want to believe in, they act on those beliefs.

Thats where freedom of speech and thought comes into its own. Why would you want to take that away from them??

 

Surely you want decisions of vital importance to the country's future taken by people who are qualified to take them based on a genuine knowledge and experience? i.e. our elected representatives.

Your comment about people believing what they want to believe - presumably on the basis of prejudice rather than informed understanding - illustrates exactly why the electorate should not be asked to decide on specific issues that our elected leaders are better qualified to make.

The people vote for their leaders. The leaders govern, guided by the manifesto on which they were elected. If the people don't like the way the leaders govern, they remove them at the next election. That's how representative democracy works, and imo should work.

The alternative - letting the people decide on everything, regardless of wether they are sufficiently well informed to do so - is anarchy.

 

If the media had no effect on opinion then the rich and powerful wouldn’t be so keen to own it

Freedom of speech is one thing. The ability of organisations to affect our freedom of opinion is another

 

No mate it isn't anarchy to let people make decisions according to their conscience.
We wouldn't be having this discussion had the Brexit vote gone the other way.
I agree that we vote for politicians to make decisions for us. Sometimes though even politicians need to be guided by how the majority feel about things. I'm not going to argue whether the Brexit is the wrong or right decision.

 

Also referendums can only really be used for simple yes/no questions.

Changing to AV? Sure.
Abortions law change? Sure.

These are what it's designed for.

The EU vote wasn't and I think people are learning that now. Had they come up with a plan before hand and let us vote on it it might have worked. But they didn't.

Had the voting referendum simply asked 'change the voting system?' Im sure we would have voted yes for that and ended up with AV which we specifically rejected in reality.

Coming up with a complex plan for the future of the country is the specific purpose of a general election.

 

The Scottish referendum proves otherwise.

 

If you mean by this that the politicians wanted Scotland to have its independence, but the people didn't you are so right. Thats why occasionally they have to go direct to the people. Same I guess over the Brexit vote..........

 

You think agreeing to hold the referendum was the right decision then (regardless of the outcome)?

Because it's not going too well now is it? Country more divided than it's ever been, government in turmoil, businesses delaying investment and threatening to relocate, the entire Civil Service tied up in knots over one issue.

Looks a lot like anarchy to me.

 

I think there was one about our Wallace brothers coming from the Planet Zygon or something similar...but stand to be corrected!

 

Archers comments.

The people vote for their leaders. The leaders govern, guided by the manifesto on which they were elected. If the people don't like the way the leaders govern, they remove them at the next election. That's how representative democracy works, and imo should work.

My reply.

Whilst you are correct in the main,unfortunately most of the people can only vote for those who've been put on the ballot paper.and I hear what you're about to say but we have very little choice in reality.
Do they ever follow their manifesto anymore btw?

 

I agree, the uk would have voted against Brexit if the politicians came up with the plan like in Scotland.

 

Thats why I wanted AV.

 

Wouldn't change much!

 

Course it would, you'd be able to rank issues and still elect the main party you want without throwing your vote away, demonstrating the desire for leaving Europe and showing the politicians what they need to do to win votes far better than the current system.

Basically you wouldn't be restricted to voting for the 2 parties on the ballot paper.