Off Topic Politics Thread

[SaintStu]

Trade will go on whatever form of Brexit or not that happens.
If it was better explained that you can control EU immigration and exit ECJ jurisdiction but scrap the NI peace treaty/Irish border and risk the break up of the UK, make the lives of people living in Gibraltar more difficult, risk the health care of UK nationals living in the EU OR accept the status quo which included a seat at the table of the EU where you can try to influence the direction, then perhaps some people who voted the way they did would have changed. For me the risk of disrupting the peace in NI outweighs any fears of the ECJ making some anti-UK proclamations', besides I work in the science industry which heavily relies on co-operation and staff moving from one country to another and my wife works for the NHS which also benefits from EU migration.
Migration is not bad. It may change the "British Way of Life" but it will be evolutionary not revolutionary and not something to be feared.

 

[VocalMinority]

With soft Brexit you end up following most of the EU rules without any say in them whatsoever. It exacerbates the democratic problems while still making trade harder. It does feel a lot like, then what was the point? It's hard to praise whatever happens because there's no good outcome I can see so most of what you are going to get is criticism.

Also we can't rejoin in a few years with the same concessions we had prior to leaving. They're going to want to punish us to protect Europe as a whole.

I just wanted to quote Justine Greening because I only just read it and her answer was uncanny

Greening:
"We'll be dragging Remain voters out of the EU for a deal that means still complying with many EU rules, but now with no say on shaping them.

"It's not what they want, and on top of that when they hear that Leave voters are unhappy, they ask, 'What's the point?'

"For Leavers, this deal simply does not deliver the proper break from the European Union that they wanted."



Edit: Also, Stu, couldn't agree more

 

[The Ides of March]

The tories will be blamed whatever happens. Firstly for having the referendum at all........then the people going against what the tories recommended (to stay in) now for the way they are handling the Brexit itself. They will be slaughtered at the next general election no matter how things pan out mark my words.

I do not think the Tories will be slaughtered at all. Theresa May will stay until Brexit has been delivered in some shape or form, then the papers will give it praise, because anything less will undermine their beloved Tories. Following on from that, a new Tory leader will be found who is largely untarnished by the whole issue and will thus garner the support of the Conservative leaning press in the 24 months up to the next election.

 

[ImpSaint]

The Scottish referendum proves otherwise.

If the referendum had gone the other way we wouldn't be seeing "as much" of the arguing. Yes we would still be campaigning and speaking out but in terms of the screen media (paper media is nowhere near as influential these days as TV and internet) for them it would be dead and buried and would be down the bottom of the pecking order.

Of course Farage and people who wanted to leave would still campaign to be out but we just would not get day to day arguments being given top billing as we have had for remain.

 

[ImpSaint]

Sadly mate....the politicians were not prepared for the way the vote went. The truth is no matter what kind of deal they get (if at all) the tory party is going to be slaughtered which ever way this goes.......Labour will say they would have got a better deal. The liberals will say they didn't agree on the referendum. This is a major decision that the people have made. The turmoil that has come was or should have been expected. You are always going to get politicians arguing as to which is the best way to go. The papers are all doom and gloom...simply because that sells newspapers. In time it will sort itself out and we as a nation as always will by then have something else to moan about...........

It was Nick Clegg that tried to put an amendment on the Lisbon Treaty for a referendum to be held.......and it was turned down.

 

[ImpSaint]

I do not think the Tories will be slaughtered at all. Theresa May will stay until Brexit has been delivered in some shape or form, then the papers will give it praise, because anything less will undermine their beloved Tories. Following on from that, a new Tory leader will be found who is largely untarnished by the whole issue and will thus garner the support of the Conservative leaning press in the 24 months up to the next election.

The Tories at this point are finished at the next election anyway. That is why they are still pinning their hopes on "Vote for us or you'll get Corbyn." They are desperate for something to take away their Brexit failure (from both leave and remain voters.)

If they do hard Brexit then some of the Tory vote last time will shoot back to where they normally vote. If they do soft Brexit they will lose leavers. If the fudge a remain they will lose some of their core vote. It is going to be a big drop. Corbyn doesn;t need to get "more votes" this time round. The Tory vote was propped up with borrowed votes based on Brexit and a 10% drop in turnout is quite likely, most of which will be people who voted Tory in 2017.

 

[VocalMinority]

J

If the referendum had gone the other way we wouldn't be seeing "as much" of the arguing. Yes we would still be campaigning and speaking out but in terms of the screen media (paper media is nowhere near as influential these days as TV and internet) for them it would be dead and buried and would be down the bottom of the pecking order.

Of course Farage and people who wanted to leave would still campaign to be out but we just would not get day to day arguments being given top billing as we have had for remain.

If we do somehow get a second referendum then this would be how I would campaign it. Vote remain or get years more of this BS covering the news through the transition period.

 

[San Tejón]

I do not think the Tories will be slaughtered at all. Theresa May will stay until Brexit has been delivered in some shape or form, then the papers will give it praise, because anything less will undermine their beloved Tories. Following on from that, a new Tory leader will be found who is largely untarnished by the whole issue and will thus garner the support of the Conservative leaning press in the 24 months up to the next election.

Unfortunately I believe you are spot on.
I have said before that we don’t get the PM we need, we get the one that the media/press barons want, simply because the readership of right leaning press is so much greater than that of the central/left supporting press.
I also said yesterday that despite more people now being social media and internet savvy, you cannot underestimate the power of the media to influence voters.
If I remember correctly, when Blair trounced the Tories, he did it with Rupert Murdoch in support. If he were to support (I know he won’t) Corbyn, Labour would have a landslide victory, IMO, based on their latest manifesto and the ineptitude of the opposition.
Murdoch getting Sun readers to support a Conservative Government, is akin to getting turkeys to vote for Christmas.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Trump is a twat no doubt. Unfortunately he is also a bully. He and Putin should get on well!!..............
Peoples opinion of Brexit is very divided........just as the vote to leave was when you include NI and Scotland.........In England and wales the votes were not split but voted heavily for splitting with Europe. Just bare in mind neither of the political parties actually wanted to leave. So the Brexit vote came from all fronts, left, right and centre!! I can understand why some of the younger element are concerned, nobody can predict what is likely to happen in the future. You can only guess according to your point of view. Going back to the 50's and 60's when we kept applying to join the market De Gaulle kept putting the knife in and as a consequence we weren't allowed to join. Although eventually we managed it. I voted against joining then as I was fearful of it turning into a political arena, rather than just a trade agreement, as has proved, although granted it was very gradual. I don't know if it is the right or wrong thing to do in this day and age. I do know though as a result of our being in the EU to a certain extent we have lost our British way of life. Everything we do or say is governed by non elected people..... Even our very own courts can be over ruled!! That for me that is not the way to go.........but hey what do I know...........

The "British way of life" is what this is about. All the economic arguments and other crap that is being thrown about are just red herrings. People are voting on a culture.

And to that end, I disagree with your view that Brexit was not a result of demographics. The youth vote was very strongly in favor of remaining. I do no think that this was due to uncertainty about what might happen due to Brexit as much as they do not care about preserving the traditional "British way of life." My guess is they are at best neutral but more likely in favor of moving past how people lived 30 or more years ago. I think that tension is also playing out in the US. It's the older people who are conservative-- especially Socially conservative-- and favor Trump.

This is going to start playing out in domestic affairs very soon. As long as it's British vs "others" or US vs "others" you can get some coalition around "yeah, obviously I pick my country." Or at least those who are opposed and don't like where things might be headed are not going to want to be accused of not standing up for their own country. I don't think it has become fully apparent yet how differently the citizens themselves view "Britain" or "America."

We're still doing a lot of dodging around the issue with one side assuming it's immigrants and/or a few intellectual liberal elites opposing things or conversely that it's a bunch of blue-collar/country bumpkins or rich conservative elites. Both sides feel like they speak for the silenced majority and there needs to be some kind of uprising to take back control from the government/press/whathaveyou.

The **** is really going to hit the fan when everyone realizes how internally divided their countries actually are. That it's really split 50/50 down the middle or really more like 10/15/25/15/10/10/10/5 once the fractures really start showing. That's when things will start to get really nasty, and likely somewhat violent.

I think things are going to get worse before they get better. Most industrialized nations are going through some form of this same debate right now.

 

[Saints_Alive]

That's one thing about this Brexit debacle, the press have laid off of their obsessive personal bashing and muck raking of Jeremy Corbyn for the time being.

 

[ImpSaint]

That's one thing about this Brexit debacle, the press have laid off of their obsessive personal bashing and muck raking of Jeremy Corbyn for the time being.

And missing that in latest polling UKIP are up to 8% (from 3%.)

The Tories are down to 36% (down 6 points) safe to assume that UKIPs 5% rise is from that Tory loss.

Labour are on 40%.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Reading on twitter, the aftermath of Helsinki:

Donald trump openly backing Putin over his own intelligence services...as well as calling the European Union a “foe”.

German foreign minister says something along the lines of:”We can no longer rely on the White House”. I read that for the first time since WW2, germany are drawing up strategies which consider the United States of America to be an adversary.

Even Fox News has called Trump’s performance a disgrace.

Bloody hell.

 

[San Tejón]

Hernia operations being rationed owing to lack of funding.
Maybe I’m missing the point here, but surely stopping “routine” operations that enable people to continue working, will force some of them to stop working, forcing them onto benefits, which will ultimately cost the country more.
The same has been mentioned recently about operations for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (something I suffer with), becoming a “paid for” operation, as “it isn’t a very serious condition”, despite it stopping some from working.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ng-hernia-patients-lives-at-risk-say-surgeons

 

[Beddy]

Trump's performance in Helsinki is a disgrace both to himself and the American people...........By kowtowing to the Russians he will actually create more problems for the future. The man in my opinion should be put in a lunatic asylum. What the heck he is thinking by announcing his own security people as being useless and liars is bewildering. He is more dangerous than I thought to world peace...........There is no doubt the man is a first class Prick.........Sorry ladies..........

 

[ImpSaint]

I see Carole Cadwallader has been up to her usual tricks again reporting anything as fact and then accusing Piers Morgan of doing something that was in fact a different paper:

https://order-order.com/2018/07/16/yet-another-cadwalladr-correction/

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Trump's performance in Helsinki is a disgrace both to himself and the American people...........By kowtowing to the Russians he will actually create more problems for the future. The man in my opinion should be put in a lunatic asylum. What the heck he is thinking by announcing his own security people as being useless and liars is bewildering. He is more dangerous than I thought to world peace...........There is no doubt the man is a first class Prick.........Sorry ladies..........

I can not see why people are still referring to Russia as the enemy, they are no longer a Communist country and has more in common now with western countries. did Russians interfere with the Us elections/ yes, at what level and with who, don't know. There is no proof at the moment directly linking Putin to Trump. trump is correct that saying there are only 2 countries in the world that can destroy the world if war breaks out.
Trump has shown that he will not hesitate in using force against Putin, Putin is a thug and is trying to expand Russia's power in the area, but by arming Putin's enemies and by bombing Russian troops, the US have shown that they will not back down from Russia.
12 GRU agents have been arrested for hacking the Demorats, firstly Obamas lack of proactive defence against hacking threats is disgusting, how the hell can a sitting president do nothing about a foreign threat to elections when it happened in the 2012 elections as well. Secondly, every major power screws around with other peoples elections or emails. The Russians were stirring **** with both sides during the elections

 

[Saints_Alive]

The result of the 2016 Brexit Referendum should be declared null and void. Vote Leave clearly cheated and gained an unfair advantage and they fed the UK a pack of colossal lies to boot.
Democracy needs to be seen as squeaky clean and fair on all levels...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992


With the result being as close as it was, there should be a "Stewards Enquiry" and a re-run if found to be unfair.

 

[VocalMinority]

I can not see why people are still referring to Russia as the enemy, they are no longer a Communist country and has more in common now with western countries. did Russians interfere with the Us elections/ yes, at what level and with who, don't know. There is no proof at the moment directly linking Putin to Trump. trump is correct that saying there are only 2 countries in the world that can destroy the world if war breaks out.
Trump has shown that he will not hesitate in using force against Putin, Putin is a thug and is trying to expand Russia's power in the area, but by arming Putin's enemies and by bombing Russian troops, the US have shown that they will not back down from Russia.
12 GRU agents have been arrested for hacking the Demorats, firstly Obamas lack of proactive defence against hacking threats is disgusting, how the hell can a sitting president do nothing about a foreign threat to elections when it happened in the 2012 elections as well. Secondly, every major power screws around with other peoples elections or emails. The Russians were stirring **** with both sides during the elections

According to our government they are launching attacks on our country and killing our citizens.

 

[VocalMinority]

The result of the 2016 Brexit Referendum should be declered null and void. Vote Leave clearly cheated and gained an unfair advantage and they fed the UK a pack of colossal lies to boot.
Democracy needs to seen as squeaky clean and fair on all levels...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992


With the result being as close as it was, there should a "Stewards Enquiry" and a re-run if found to be unfair.

I don't think there's time left but we should have a vote only the final deal anyway as it's the only way to see if the population genuinely supports going through with this.

 

[Puck]

The result of the 2016 Brexit Referendum should be declared null and void. Vote Leave clearly cheated and gained an unfair advantage and they fed the UK a pack of colossal lies to boot.
Democracy needs to be seen as squeaky clean and fair on all levels...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992


With the result being as close as it was, there should be a "Stewards Enquiry" and a re-run if found to be unfair.

I wonder whether spending this extra £700k gained the Leave campaign as much of an advantage as the Remain campaign gained when the government spent £9m on sending a pro-EU leaflet to every address in the country.