Effect of Brexit

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Exactly. Their impact is on ordinary people stopping people getting to work or in my case stopping my wife getting to her cancer treatment. B*stards, self serving, self caring politically motivated, megalomaniac led B*stards.
Compulsory arbitration is the 21st century answer. Blackmail and holding ordinary people lives hostage is not.
I can't believe I'm reading some of this Leo - and you accuse me of being radical. The ability to withdraw labour, as a last resort which is sometimes the only tool possible for workers to protect themselves is a human right, without which we would be moving slowly back to slavery. It may be inconvenient at times for the consumer or traveller but we have to understand that workers need to have a means at their disposal to avoid being at the complete mercy of their employers, and to give more balance between worker and employer power. Without the right to strike workers would be completely at the mercy of the market, and 'profitability'. Do you want to go back to the 19th Century ?
 
Arthur Scargill
He objected to any form of modernisation in the coal industry

yes and he was the diametric opponent of an authoritarian establishment who used the forces of the state to overthrow an action they had every right to perform...
The same sort of things has happened in despotic totalitarian countries world wide. Again I am talking principle as i was no supporter of Scargill

Also I live in the midst of the old coal mine territory... whole towns were decimated... and communities where the Tories would never have any chance of getting in. People to this day are VERY bitter The Govt closed the mines as we could get 'cheaper' coal elsewhere......

These were ordinary working people who wanted to do a days work... not some sort of extreme radical communist plot....

Unions were created to protect working people... let us never forget that.....
 
yes and he was the diametric opponent of an authoritarian establishment who used the forces of the state to overthrow an action they had every right to perform...
The same sort of things has happened in despotic totalitarian countries world wide. Again I am talking principle as i was no supporter of Scargill

Also I live in the midst of the old coal mine territory... whole towns were decimated... and communities where the Tories would never have any chance of getting in. People to this day are VERY bitter The Govt closed the mines as we could get 'cheaper' coal elsewhere......

These were ordinary working people who wanted to do a days work... not some sort of extreme radical communist plot....

Unions were created to protect working people... let us never forget that.....

I would think the new generation are thankful they don't have to work underground in awful conditions anymore to earn a living. With the UK unemployment at its lowest level for 40 years jobs have been created in those former mining areas that are far superior.
 
I would think the new generation are thankful they don't have to work underground in awful conditions anymore to earn a living. With the UK unemployment at its lowest level for 40 years jobs have been created in those former mining areas that are far superior.
The problem was that they destroyed whole communities and cultures SH. not just industries, and it was Thatcher's intention to do just that.
 
I would think the new generation are thankful they don't have to work underground in awful conditions anymore to earn a living. With the UK unemployment at its lowest level for 40 years jobs have been created in those former mining areas that are far superior.
Come and debate that with the people of Barnsley, Rotherham, Pontefract, Castleford etc etc. You would get nowhere fast. Whole communities were decimated.. And not recovered to this day. Wont take you long to find out where the cheapest housing is etc etc.
For you and I all this passes us by as we by chance, birth , motivation etc have been able to make more of our lives.

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
 
The problem was that they destroyed whole communities and cultures SH. not just industries, and it was Thatcher's intention to do just that.

Surely you cannot believe her intentions were anything like that. De-industrialisation was gaining ground well before Thatcher. The leaders of the mining unions were Kremlin financed communists more intend on bringing the government down rather than look after their own members, which they managed to wholly let down.

Every government since has considered the changes she made to industrial relations as the norm, not to be changed in any way.
Hopefully Corbyn, McDonnell and the Unite union do not have a chance to take us back to those dark days.
 
Come and debate that with the people of Barnsley, Rotherham, Pontefract, Castleford etc etc. You would get nowhere fast. Whole communities were decimated.. And not recovered to this day. Wont take you long to find out where the cheapest housing is etc etc.
For you and I all this passes us by as we by chance, birth , motivation etc have been able to make more of our lives.

Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk

Unemployment levels in those areas are around 5%, half those in your beloved France.
 
Unemployment levels in those areas are around 5%, half those in your beloved France.
I don't think it's realistic here to be talking of unemployment statistics. Many areas of the north were dramatically depopulated during the 80s - Liverpool alone lost around 200,000 in population, and it was not unique in this. Immigration managed to restabilize some areas - but these were people who, for one reason or another, have never appeared on unemployment statistics. The other point is that real jobs were destroyed whereas what replaced them were hire and fire, zero contract, precarious jobs in the service sector. Germany also deindustrialized many mining areas - the Ruhr is full of these old mining towns, Gelsenkirchen, Essen etc. I also live in an old mining area (Zinc and Cadmium) but these were phased out gradually in a planned manner over a large number of years, accompanied by the necessary reinvestment in those areas.
 
Very emotive responses from both of you......

I think every worker has to have the right to withdraw their labour. Otherwise they are enslaved to their employers.

You only have to go back to Victorian times to see the full impact on ordinary people and the industrial revolution made people serfs to the big mill owners.

There have been slow and steady reforms as much part of people standing up for what they believe in.

When we look at what some Unions may choose to do that is a different matter and for some the Union movement is part of the struggle of the working class against those that own the means of production etc etc.... I have never liked that side of politics but understand where it comes from historically.

I talk here about a principle not the acts and decisions of different unions in different countries.....
Blackmail is an emotive issue. If I| hurt you or your family to further my economic ends I would not expect you to be cool and calm. That is what stirkes do.
Every worker has the right not to work for an employer. Quit if you don't like your job. Nobody has the right to a guaranteed job. Strikes were a 19C way of dealing with unequal labour laws. Nowadays compulsory arbitration means there is never a need to strike.
We don't live in Victorian times so they are not relevant. Why not quote the Romans or *****ls - it would be as relevant..
Stirkes are the use of force and innocent people who are not connected to either party are usually the victims.
 
I think it is important ot discriminate between those Unions with a strong political affiliation and others
here is a list of just some unions for example cut and pasted from yougov:
A to C

Trade union
Annual returns
Accord Annual returns
Advance Annual returns
Aegis the Union Annual returns
Affinity Annual returns
Aircrew Officers Association Europe Annual returns
Alliance for Finance Annual returns
Artists’ Union England Annual returns
ASPSU Annual returns
Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen Annual returns
Associated Train Crew Union Annual returns
Association for Clinical Biochemistry & Laboratory Medicine Annual returns
Association of Educational Psychologists Annual returns
Association of Headteachers and Deputes in Scotland Annual returns
Association of Local Authority Chief Executives Annual returns
Association of Revenue and Customs Annual returns
Association of School & College Leaders Annual returns
Bakers, Food and Allied Workers’ Union Annual returns
Balfour Beatty Group Staff Association Annual returns
Bluechip Staff Association Annual returns
Boots Pharmacists’ Association (BPA) Annual returns
Britannia Staff Union Annual returns
British Air Line Pilots Association Annual returns
British Association of Dental Nurses Annual returns
British Association of Journalists Annual returns
British Association of Occupational Therapists Ltd Annual returns
British Dental Association Annual returns
British Dietetic Association Annual returns
British Medical Association Annual returns
British Orthoptic Society Trade Union Annual returns
Cabin Crew Union UK (first annual return due by 1 June 2017) Annual returns
Chartered Society of Physiotherapy Annual returns
City Screen Staff ReplyForum Annual returns
Cleaners and Allied Independent Workers Union (CAIWU) Annual returns
Communication Workers Union Annual returns
Community Annual returns
Confederation of British Surgery Annual returns
CU Staff Consultative Group Annual returns
Currys Supply Chain Staff Association (CSCSA) Annual returns

and....
who was it that closed down Coal mining in this country???
What is the point of a list of unions.
and Scargill closed the coal mining industry through political strikes
 
I can't believe I'm reading some of this Leo - and you accuse me of being radical. The ability to withdraw labour, as a last resort which is sometimes the only tool possible for workers to protect themselves is a human right, without which we would be moving slowly back to slavery. It may be inconvenient at times for the consumer or traveller but we have to understand that workers need to have a means at their disposal to avoid being at the complete mercy of their employers, and to give more balance between worker and employer power. Without the right to strike workers would be completely at the mercy of the market, and 'profitability'. Do you want to go back to the 19th Century ?
Nonsense. There is no justification nowadays to hurt innocent people when arbitration is an alternative with the outcome mandatory if the two sides fail to compromise. Strikes are the extreme; negotiation and arbitration are just being reasonable. Tell the millions who have suffered for the last few years on Southern Rail that stirkes are justified.
Moving back to slavery - what garbage - and you say you are not extreme.
You parrot Marx and Engels - 19C - rubbish. Try 21st Century arbitration.
 
yes and he was the diametric opponent of an authoritarian establishment who used the forces of the state to overthrow an action they had every right to perform...
The same sort of things has happened in despotic totalitarian countries world wide. Again I am talking principle as i was no supporter of Scargill

Also I live in the midst of the old coal mine territory... whole towns were decimated... and communities where the Tories would never have any chance of getting in. People to this day are VERY bitter The Govt closed the mines as we could get 'cheaper' coal elsewhere......

These were ordinary working people who wanted to do a days work... not some sort of extreme radical communist plot....

Unions were created to protect working people... let us never forget that.....
You live in an area where people are Labour supporters who failed to see the enemy was Scargill and the Unions. If they had their way we would still have horses and carts. If the Unions had cared about the workers not politics they would have agreed a sensible way of exploiting the diminishing coal resources. No - they tried to bring down a government and thankfully failed.
Honestly reading you and Cologne is like going back in time. You resort to talking about previous centuries and totallitarian regimes in other countries becaus eyou have no currently valid arguments. We are a 21st Century democracy whatever Cologne thinks and strikes are not an acceptable way of resloving disputes - they deliberately target innocent people.
 
I don't think it's realistic here to be talking of unemployment statistics. Many areas of the north were dramatically depopulated during the 80s - Liverpool alone lost around 200,000 in population, and it was not unique in this. Immigration managed to restabilize some areas - but these were people who, for one reason or another, have never appeared on unemployment statistics. The other point is that real jobs were destroyed whereas what replaced them were hire and fire, zero contract, precarious jobs in the service sector. Germany also deindustrialized many mining areas - the Ruhr is full of these old mining towns, Gelsenkirchen, Essen etc. I also live in an old mining area (Zinc and Cadmium) but these were phased out gradually in a planned manner over a large number of years, accompanied by the necessary reinvestment in those areas.

I'm sure their are lots of good quality businesses and jobs that have been created in these former mining areas taking advantage of cheaper costs and a willing workforce. Your black & white world is far too simplistic for reality.

At the moment I am in the middle of a self build project. Some components with specialist labour, windows, doors, block & beam floors, etc are sourced mainly from the North or East of England where lower production costs outweigh the logistical cost to reach the Home Counties. Although I am retired now I previously moved my warehousing from Herts to the Midlands for the same reasons. I really do not buy into your vision of UK barren industrial areas.
 
The problem was that they destroyed whole communities and cultures SH. not just industries, and it was Thatcher's intention to do just that.
It was not.
She simply recognised that mining was dying. If the unions cared about workers they would have cooperated in slow managed reduction alongside new industries but they were not interested - after all each miner gone was less union contributions.
 
I'm sure their are lots of good quality businesses and jobs that have been created in these former mining areas taking advantage of cheaper costs and a willing workforce. Your black & white world is far too simplistic for reality.

At the moment I am in the middle of a self build project. Some components with specialist labour, windows, doors, block & beam floors, etc are sourced mainly from the North or East of England where lower production costs outweigh the logistical cost to reach the Home Counties. Although I am retired now I previously moved my warehousing from Herts to the Midlands for the same reasons. I really do not buy into your vision of UK barren industrial areas.
It is just left wing political ideology based on times long gone versus adaptation to the modern world. Some people would have us live in huts with no modern transport or high tech industry - good for them but not for most of us.
 
Unemployment levels in those areas are around 5%, half those in your beloved France.
Drifted into emotive and abusive tone again.
I suggest you talk to some ex mining folk and see how they feel. There are villages around here where you can't get two houses for 50k as there is nothing happening there any more. May be ask yourself why the Tories never get in on those areas. Because they are responsible for the running down of so many communities. They do nothing for these working class people. One of the reasons the union movement developed was that government do nothing for the manual workers.. Except to exploit them for profit..

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You live in an area where people are Labour supporters who failed to see the enemy was Scargill and the Unions. If they had their way we would still have horses and carts. If the Unions had cared about the workers not politics they would have agreed a sensible way of exploiting the diminishing coal resources. No - they tried to bring down a government and thankfully failed.
Honestly reading you and Cologne is like going back in time. You resort to talking about previous centuries and totallitarian regimes in other countries becaus eyou have no currently valid arguments. We are a 21st Century democracy whatever Cologne thinks and strikes are not an acceptable way of resloving disputes - they deliberately target innocent people.
You may like to think we have 'moved on' from the 19th Century, but was Thatcher not an admirer of what she called 'Victorian Values' - was Neo Liberalism nothing other than an ideological repetition of the Laissez Faire of those times ? An ideology which failed miserably then, as now. Is the distribution of wealth in modern Britain not more unequal now than at any time since the Middle Ages ? You talk of compulsory arbitration - by whom ? By a body set up by the government which is, in turn, sponsored by the employers - do you expect them to be always neutral ? And when this fails then the only recourse is withholding of labour. You may be bitter because of personal experiences - but that is no reason to apply a ruling to all cases, as you are doing.
 
Drifted into emotive and abusive tone again.
I suggest you talk to some ex mining folk and see how they feel. There are villages around here where you can't get two houses for 50k as there is nothing happening there any more. May be ask yourself why the Tories never get in on those areas. Because they are responsible for the running down of so many communities. They do nothing for these working class people. One of the reasons the union movement developed was that government do nothing for the manual workers.. Except to exploit them for profit..

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Sometimes it is giving as good as you get. People talking about Victorian age and despots in foreign lands are not emotive?
The mining community were misled and will never forgive or forget - but it does not make their stand right.
Blimey - I thought arguments about class warfare were a thing of the past too. Most of us are just middle class for goodness sake. The era of people in rags doffing caps to lords and ladies has gone you know.