Effect of Brexit

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superhorns said:
Most EU countries faced with the mass uncontrolled immigration that the UK has experienced would have reacted the same if not with more negativity. The UK is not, and has never been anti Europe. It just cannot see why it has to accept whatever is thrown at it from Brussels.

To be a sovereign nation which controls its own borders and immigration is simply a right enjoyed by most nations in the world. The EU is the experiment that has gone off track to suit the Eurocrats on the gravy train. They will ruin what was once a good idea with a free trade area. The discord between EU member countries continues to increase, nothing to do with Brexit.
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I think you overestimate the amount of migration from the EU into the UK - t was always overshadowed here by non EU migration.
I also think you overestimate the concern most EU countries have about migration - they just do not seem as bothered. That could be because for hundreds of years moving on the continent was easier than to an island.
I do agree that the UK is not anti-Europe - and more to the point mostly also not anti-EU. I do agree the UK though especially disliked the Commission and its seemingly undemocratic, dictatorial and bureaucratic nature.
The EU comes over as very arrogant and the UK has felt that the German-French accord has given us less influence than we might have liked.
Whatever the right and wrongs of those arguments once the UK voted to decide its own future the EU - like remainers had no choice but to accept it.
 
superhorns said:
The level of euroscepticism was, and is, higher in several other EU member countries, with France being one of the highest. I' m not claiming this would necessarily lead to the counties leaving although most of the leaders would not dare put it to the test in case The EU was rejected. It would certainly benefit Italy Greece and maybe some others to ditch the euro, in the long run.
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The farce that has been brexit should be enough to put any idea of another EU country voting to leave far far into the distance. I also think that EUU citizens like the EU more that UK citizens did - even if they are equally sceptical about the way the EU is run. Of course the failure of brext was always something the EU were determined would happen for exactly those reasons.
 
We're even importing our CO2 from the continent.
superhorns said:
There are many on the continent that have little or no understanding of why 17.5 million Brits would vote to leave the EU. Your neighbour should take notice of the massive disagreements currently raging between EU member nations over immigration. Has he not seen reports of insults trading between Italy and France at the moment? It would help if you told him many districts in the UK have changed dramatically due to the uncontrolled immigration. Most in the U.K. are eurosceptic and want powers returned from Brussels, he should also understand that view is rife amongst the large percentage of the public in France. If he is happy to live under the control of a superstate dominated by Germany that is his choice. The British public have a well documented history of opposing this.
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Why 17.5m brits voted to leave the EU is probably more down to, in no particular order, (1) the power of the non-dom newspaper owners spreading their lies, (2) TM not doing her job when home secretary (not even close to implementing the immigration powers at her disposal), (3) a rubbish campaign by remain, (4) the daftest set of rules for deciding the referendum in the first place, (5) a general lack of understanding of all of the issues and consequences, (6) downright lies and obfuscation by the brexshit campaign. That probably means that quite a few millions would still have voted the same way anyway, but...
 
The comments that seem to come to the surface here are more about the splits that have appeared in the UK society since Brexit. I think they have always been there, it just has brought them out into the open more. Opinion across the whole of the EU certainly has moved quite strongly, and not against it since the referendum. It is regarded as a farce, and people wonder how long it will be before the population wake up from their sleep walking.
 
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Leo said:
The farce that has been brexit should be enough to put any idea of another EU country voting to leave far far into the distance. I also think that EUU citizens like the EU more that UK citizens did - even if they are equally sceptical about the way the EU is run. Of course the failure of brext was always something the EU were determined would happen for exactly those reasons.
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There has been no failure of Brexit because it has not happened yet. The EU has obviously put containment of apathy before a sensible trading relationship with the UK. My hope is individual nations will demand realism from Barrier and others.
 
Leo said:
I think you overestimate the amount of migration from the EU into the UK - t was always overshadowed here by non EU migration.
I also think you overestimate the concern most EU countries have about migration - they just do not seem as bothered. That could be because for hundreds of years moving on the continent was easier than to an island.
I do agree that the UK is not anti-Europe - and more to the point mostly also not anti-EU. I do agree the UK though especially disliked the Commission and its seemingly undemocratic, dictatorial and bureaucratic nature.
The EU comes over as very arrogant and the UK has felt that the German-French accord has given us less influence than we might have liked.
Whatever the right and wrongs of those arguments once the UK voted to decide its own future the EU - like remainers had no choice but to accept it.
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There are currently several EU member nations involved in a public slanging match over levels of immigration and the effective EU leader is in danger of losing her job over the same subject. Immigration is a huge topic in the EU and the main threat to its long term existence, I probably under played the importance of the subject.

Austria is threatening to reintroduce border control, Italy is revolting against Brussels directives, Hungary and others are refusing quotas. It is a bigger issue to the EU than any other including Brexit at the moment.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
The comments that seem to come to the surface here are more about the splits that have appeared in the UK society since Brexit. I think they have always been there, it just has brought them out into the open more. Opinion across the whole of the EU certainly has moved quite strongly, and not against it since the referendum. It is regarded as a farce, and people wonder how long it will be before the population wake up from their sleep walking.
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There has been a marked rise in anti EU sentiment within the EU since Brexit. Anti EU parties have recently becomes the most popular in several countries. The Visegrad countries and Italy are openly defying orders from Brussels, the whole thing is slowly falling apart.
 
superhorns said:
There has been no failure of Brexit because it has not happened yet. The EU has obviously put containment of apathy before a sensible trading relationship with the UK. My hope is individual nations will demand realism from Barrier and others.
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I meant failure of the brexit process. It should not have gone like it has.
superhorns said:
There are currently several EU member nations involved in a public slanging match over levels of immigration and the effective EU leader is in danger of losing her job over the same subject. Immigration is a huge topic in the EU and the main threat to its long term existence, I probably under played the importance of the subject.
Austria is threatening to reintroduce border control, Italy is revolting against Brussels directives, Hungary and others are refusing quotas. It is a bigger issue to the EU than any other including Brexit at the moment.
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I agree immigration is a huge matter within the EU. However I don't see it as leading to a break up (or down) of the EU. It will go on as it is for decades. It is not a subject there will ever be much unanimity over but will be dealt with by compromise and some countries just ignoring the rules.
superhorns said:
There has been a marked rise in anti EU sentiment within the EU since Brexit. Anti EU parties have recently becomes the most popular in several countries. The Visegrad countries and Italy are openly defying orders from Brussels, the whole thing is slowly falling apart.
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There will be more and less anti-EU sentiment. I think the anti-EU parties as you describe them are opposed to things within the EU not wanting to leave. I see no appetite for that anywhere else.
 
Leo said:
I meant failure of the brexit process. It should not have gone like it has.

I agree immigration is a huge matter within the EU. However I don't see it as leading to a break up (or down) of the EU. It will go on as it is for decades. It is not a subject there will ever be much unanimity over but will be dealt with by compromise and some countries just ignoring the rules.

There will be more and less anti-EU sentiment. I think the anti-EU parties as you describe them are opposed to things within the EU not wanting to leave. I see no appetite for that anywhere else.
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The potential contagion depends on how successful Brexit is generally perceived as, which is why the EU are hell bent on inflicting as much pain as possible. We can only judge Brexit on the final deal and subsequent years. What is happening now is just froth which we will all forget about when other larger events shape Europe. The fact is there is much more open hostility towards Brussels, from the proletariat, and increasingly open defiance from member states, the like of which was previously rare.
 
superhorns said:
The potential contagion depends on how successful Brexit is generally perceived as, which is why the EU are hell bent on inflicting as much pain as possible. We can only judge Brexit on the final deal and subsequent years. What is happening now is just froth which we will all forget about when other larger events shape Europe. The fact is there is much more open hostility towards Brussels, from the proletariat, and increasingly open defiance from member states, the like of which was previously rare.
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I think you are spot on with regards to how successful brexit is perceived to be and also that the EU therefore have a motive to give us other than a "good" deal. Assuming they make sure our brexit is considered "bad" do you not think that will put an extra dampener on others thoughts of leaving?
What other larger events are you considering?
Proletariat?????!!!!! Blimey -did Marx or Engels get hold of you for a moment?
 
Leo said:
I think you are spot on with regards to how successful brexit is perceived to be and also that the EU therefore have a motive to give us other than a "good" deal. Assuming they make sure our brexit is considered "bad" do you not think that will put an extra dampener on others thoughts of leaving?
What other larger events are you considering?
Proletariat?????!!!!! Blimey -did Marx or Engels get hold of you for a moment?
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I think momentum having been working on me, I'll be talking about political party membership soon !!!! :emoticon-0100-smile
 
yorkshirehornet said:
Don't tell him but i have a sense SH is a closet Green...He is getting there slowly
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The closest I will get to being a Green is wearing my Green shorts today. It is difficult to oppose most of their aims, it is just their solutions that are a bit wacky. Please don't ask me to go into this further, it is my last day by the pool.
 
superhorns said:
The closest I will get to being a Green is wearing my Green shorts today. It is difficult to oppose most of their aims, it is just their solutions that are a bit wacky. Please don't ask me to go into this further, it is my last day by the pool.
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They're basically communists. That doesn't work either.
 
colognehornet said:
How do you know that they would never work if they have never been tried ?
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We have been through that debate before and I am not interested in replaying it. Their ideas are plain bonkers. I don't know if German Greens are the same but I went through the UK Greens election manifesto and it read like some crazy had written it. The UK would be bankrupt in no time. They make Labour look almost sensible on economics. I don't have to try poison to know it is poison - just study it and look at the effects it would create.
They are very nice people and have some lovely little ideas for the planet but beyond that are a bunch of well meaning fools economically speaking.
 
Leo said:
We have been through that debate before and I am not interested in replaying it. Their ideas are plain bonkers. I don't know if German Greens are the same but I went through the UK Greens election manifesto and it read like some crazy had written it. The UK would be bankrupt in no time. They make Labour look almost sensible on economics. I don't have to try poison to know it is poison - just study it and look at the effects it would create.
They are very nice people and have some lovely little ideas for the planet but beyond that are a bunch of well meaning fools economically speaking.
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We haven't actually been through this before Leo. If I remember rightly you referred me to something resembling a complete manifesto without actually putting into clear words exactly what you object to in them.
 
I think we have; but I am sorry but I am no more interested in debating the Green's economic policies again than I am whether man did actually land on the moon or aliens landed at Roswell. I know you support them and respect you for that but that is as far as I can go.

Shocked about Germany - bet that will dampen World Cup ardour there - did they have a clue this team was not at its best?
 
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