I think you overestimate the amount of migration from the EU into the UK - t was always overshadowed here by non EU migration. I also think you overestimate the concern most EU countries have about migration - they just do not seem as bothered. That could be because for hundreds of years moving on the continent was easier than to an island. I do agree that the UK is not anti-Europe - and more to the point mostly also not anti-EU. I do agree the UK though especially disliked the Commission and its seemingly undemocratic, dictatorial and bureaucratic nature. The EU comes over as very arrogant and the UK has felt that the German-French accord has given us less influence than we might have liked. Whatever the right and wrongs of those arguments once the UK voted to decide its own future the EU - like remainers had no choice but to accept it.
The farce that has been brexit should be enough to put any idea of another EU country voting to leave far far into the distance. I also think that EUU citizens like the EU more that UK citizens did - even if they are equally sceptical about the way the EU is run. Of course the failure of brext was always something the EU were determined would happen for exactly those reasons.
We're even importing our CO2 from the continent. Why 17.5m brits voted to leave the EU is probably more down to, in no particular order, (1) the power of the non-dom newspaper owners spreading their lies, (2) TM not doing her job when home secretary (not even close to implementing the immigration powers at her disposal), (3) a rubbish campaign by remain, (4) the daftest set of rules for deciding the referendum in the first place, (5) a general lack of understanding of all of the issues and consequences, (6) downright lies and obfuscation by the brexshit campaign. That probably means that quite a few millions would still have voted the same way anyway, but...
The comments that seem to come to the surface here are more about the splits that have appeared in the UK society since Brexit. I think they have always been there, it just has brought them out into the open more. Opinion across the whole of the EU certainly has moved quite strongly, and not against it since the referendum. It is regarded as a farce, and people wonder how long it will be before the population wake up from their sleep walking.
There has been no failure of Brexit because it has not happened yet. The EU has obviously put containment of apathy before a sensible trading relationship with the UK. My hope is individual nations will demand realism from Barrier and others.
There are currently several EU member nations involved in a public slanging match over levels of immigration and the effective EU leader is in danger of losing her job over the same subject. Immigration is a huge topic in the EU and the main threat to its long term existence, I probably under played the importance of the subject. Austria is threatening to reintroduce border control, Italy is revolting against Brussels directives, Hungary and others are refusing quotas. It is a bigger issue to the EU than any other including Brexit at the moment.
There has been a marked rise in anti EU sentiment within the EU since Brexit. Anti EU parties have recently becomes the most popular in several countries. The Visegrad countries and Italy are openly defying orders from Brussels, the whole thing is slowly falling apart.
I meant failure of the brexit process. It should not have gone like it has. I agree immigration is a huge matter within the EU. However I don't see it as leading to a break up (or down) of the EU. It will go on as it is for decades. It is not a subject there will ever be much unanimity over but will be dealt with by compromise and some countries just ignoring the rules. There will be more and less anti-EU sentiment. I think the anti-EU parties as you describe them are opposed to things within the EU not wanting to leave. I see no appetite for that anywhere else.
The potential contagion depends on how successful Brexit is generally perceived as, which is why the EU are hell bent on inflicting as much pain as possible. We can only judge Brexit on the final deal and subsequent years. What is happening now is just froth which we will all forget about when other larger events shape Europe. The fact is there is much more open hostility towards Brussels, from the proletariat, and increasingly open defiance from member states, the like of which was previously rare.
I think you are spot on with regards to how successful brexit is perceived to be and also that the EU therefore have a motive to give us other than a "good" deal. Assuming they make sure our brexit is considered "bad" do you not think that will put an extra dampener on others thoughts of leaving? What other larger events are you considering? Proletariat?????!!!!! Blimey -did Marx or Engels get hold of you for a moment?
I think momentum having been working on me, I'll be talking about political party membership soon !!!!
The closest I will get to being a Green is wearing my Green shorts today. It is difficult to oppose most of their aims, it is just their solutions that are a bit wacky. Please don't ask me to go into this further, it is my last day by the pool.
I think you would need to qualify that in some way Fez. otherwise it just sounds like McCarthyite scaremongering. Have you ever heard an official member of the Green Party talking about wanting complete ownership of the means of production ?
We have been through that debate before and I am not interested in replaying it. Their ideas are plain bonkers. I don't know if German Greens are the same but I went through the UK Greens election manifesto and it read like some crazy had written it. The UK would be bankrupt in no time. They make Labour look almost sensible on economics. I don't have to try poison to know it is poison - just study it and look at the effects it would create. They are very nice people and have some lovely little ideas for the planet but beyond that are a bunch of well meaning fools economically speaking.
We haven't actually been through this before Leo. If I remember rightly you referred me to something resembling a complete manifesto without actually putting into clear words exactly what you object to in them.
I think we have; but I am sorry but I am no more interested in debating the Green's economic policies again than I am whether man did actually land on the moon or aliens landed at Roswell. I know you support them and respect you for that but that is as far as I can go. Shocked about Germany - bet that will dampen World Cup ardour there - did they have a clue this team was not at its best?
